220. Body Activist Jes Baker - internet existence, mental health and not being okay
Sofie talks to Jes Baker about body liberation, body image and mental health coaching, not being okay, Mormonism, the Internet, and The Chateaux Diaries.
Content warning – coronavirus, chronic illness, fatphobia, trauma, hopelessness, US politics, dissociation, body image, hell, religion, online abuse, death threats, stalking, therapy, racism, ableism, homelessness, economic anxiety
Transcript written by Phoebe Kitcher
Jes Baker
This is the really frustrating part about healing is like in order to have more control, not in a bad way, but like more autonomy, you are required to let go of the concept of control altogether. And I just think that's a dirty trick from the universe, but that's what's required. And so when I was able to be like, I am not okay, this is not okay, we are not okay. I was able to kind of just breathe for the first time and exhale, I think that was what I was missing.
[Musical intro]
Sofie Hagen
Jes Baker is a body activist, fat liberation activist, and life coach and one of my very best friends. You have probably heard her before on this podcast. If not, I highly recommend it. But also you don't have to have listened to those two to listen to this one. Jess and I have only met in person once she's all the way over in the US in Tucson. And we met once in January this year. And we did a huge show at the Union Chapel with amazing performers like Scottee, Travis Alabanza, Megan Crab, Crystal Rasmussen glamour. Oh, it was it was... Rosie Jones. It was an amazing night. 900 people in the audience. The show was called The World Is On Fire. As a fun little 'oh, isn't the world horrible?' joke. And then. And then the pandemic and we should have called it oh the world is still actually kind of still all right because at least we can go outside. But we didn't. And now oh boy, do I miss it. Do I miss doing shows and especially with Jes and all the amazing people who are on the lineups there. So that was the last time I saw Jes. I speak to Jes almost every day. She is one of my favourite people. She is so intelligent. She's so sharp. She's so funny. And I keep trying to - I keep trying to make her laugh because when she laughs It's the best. And everything she says is just life gold. It's it's stuff you want to know. So to give you some context, I am recording this in my kitchen where I also recorded the conversation with Jes. So there will be of sort of similar background sounds and this intro as there will be in the chat with her. Well in this intro, I have a roast in the oven. So you can probably hear my oven, it's quite a loud oven. My dog Hank is asleep. But he just stopped snoring he might start again before the end of this intro. And I do believe that there was some dog eating sounds in the recording with Jes. I messaged her two hours before we did this chat. And I said do my podcast again. And she thought I was talking about my true crime podcast from on the BBC. So she came prepared to talk about serial killers. So I'm not really sure. I'm quite impressed with how quickly she turned it around to being about you know, the inner works of her brain. I highly recommend going to check out her website, buying her books, reading her books, and especially looking into the workshops she does. Because I keep saying it to her whenever we speak I keep saying oh people are so lucky to have you. If I was ever to see a life coach? Well, I know it would be weird to see Jes because she's my friend but I mean I'd be willing to end our friendship just so I could have her as my life coach to be honest with you. So uh, I'll just let you listen to my conversation with her please enjoy my chat with the phenomenal Jes Baker.
Sofie Hagen
Introduce yourself but in the way that you would there might be an updated way you want to introduce yourself because things have changed.
Jes Baker
Yeah, they have changed. Okay, so I'm Jes Baker and I used to be pretty famous. Talking about body image and now I don't talk about it as much but I still am very pro. And with politics and activism. I like to call it body liberation. I've written a couple books about the subject. And my background is in behavioural health, mental health. And so now I do a lot of work. I do coaching, body image and mental health coaching, and workshops. And so my focus seems to be landing in that arena, of course they're connected but that's kind of where I'm living right now. And I'm also doing a tonne of personal work. So I've kind of stepped back from like, a lot of the things that people were used to seeing me do publicly, which is a huge shift because I lived online, lived and breathed social media, you know?
Sofie Hagen
It's one of the things I really want to talk to you about, one of the things I don't know enough about, about you. Which is to say a lot, because I, I know quite a lot about you. I quite like it also, I know, the sweet, sweet, the power, the power of knowing. I mean, if you think about the world, and what has happened since the last time you did this podcast, it was in London, and we were like, physically in the same room and everything about to do this huge show at the union chapel, sold out like 900 people in the audience. And then everything went to shit. And there's been a pandemic, which I don't know, if you care to, to tell the listeners who first brought this virus to your attention and what your reaction was.
Jes Baker
And we'll just, we'll just say that I, in the very beginning didn't know anything about it, because it was hitting the UK first. And also I am an American. So I guess we don't take this seriously enough still. And I laughed, I laughed. I'm not proud of it. But I was like, there's no way there's a virus named after a beer. And then it turns out that I was very, very wrong, which is a theme of my life really is that Jes doesn't know anything and. And then our friendship blossomed. So yeah, no, I didn't take it seriously enough in the beginning until it became very apparent. I think it started in Washington, Seattle, I believe,
Sofie Hagen
I seem to remember you calling your husband over to just, so that he could also laugh at the idea that there was a pandemic happening. And you could both say, 'Sofie calm down, it'll be fine'. And I seem to remember that being a, burned, a memory that's burned into my brain that symbolises the entire pandemic, for me was going, 'oh well Jes says it's fine, so it probably is fine, but also it really feels like it's not going to be fine.'
Jes Baker
I'm not proud of anything I've done around that.
Sofie Hagen
But it's so funny.
Jes Baker
I mean, I believe I also said that the US is safer because you were you were thinking about travelling here and I was like, 'oh, you should definitely come here, it's safer'. And then it became very clear that this is a completely unsafe place to be in many regards. So anyways, if there's ever a time to eat my words, it would be that and I'm very glad that you don't have a record of that because not my finest moment.
Sofie Hagen
I loved it. It made me feel very clever.
Jes Baker
You do like being right,
Sofie Hagen
I really, really enjoy it. And you think that I was desensitised to it by now but no, it just keeps being good. Every single time every day loads of times every day.
Jes Baker
You know, I do wish that I was right in this one case, though. I really do wish that it hadn't spread and been so devastating.
Sofie Hagen
Yes, I would have loved it if you could have if that was you teaching me a lesson.
Jes Baker
Yeah, that would have been the greatest, the greatest thing to teach you a lesson about.
Sofie Hagen
How did it change your....Well, how's the last? What is it eight, nine months, 10 months? I don't even know anymore. How has COVID sort of changed your circumstances?
Jes Baker
I'm really lucky and privileged because I work from home anyways, with the coaching night, you know, I kind of I can be quite, my thinking can be catastrophic a lot of times. And so I was pretty certain that, you know, like, the support that I offer would go out the door, but you know, it became really important to the people that I was already seeing. So it's continued. And I feel very fortunate for that. But it has, I think the biggest way it's impacted me is you know, I just spent a Sunday with my grandmother, you know, and here we are in November and it was so painful talking to her through a window 11 months later. And so, in all the fear, there's a couple fears. And one is, you know, her, she's one of the most important people in my life. And so the danger around her being so vulnerable to something like this when it's just really not safe. And then also for myself, to be honest, this is kind of a selfish way to look at being fat have a chronic illness, having, you know, knowing that if I were to somehow [inaudible] than my, and have insurance, right, so like all of these common factors of, you know, not receiving great care, being treated in the same way that all fat people are, a lot of fat people are afraid of going to the doctor and not receiving adequate care, knowing that in this crisis circumstance, that would probably be the case. And so those parts have been really, really difficult. And I think a lot of people as I'm teaching workshops, and the workshop is about, like realistic self care, and like creating plans and ways to support yourself in any area that you find yourself. You know, as we try and find these, these coping skills or tools to implement, a lot of those have been taken away, that we've developed and like worked so hard to develop, right, like, really put in so much work to try and cope with the world as it is now those things because in person, things are not available, have kind of gone out the window. So really having to get creative and knowing that nothing that we find is going to truly replace some of those. And that's just the reality. So yeah, but you know, and on the other hand, I still have a job and I have housing and I have not gotten sick. And so there's an extraordinary, there's an extraordinary amount of privilege there. And I definitely, definitely recognise that and have a lot of gratitude around that as well. So, you know, it's the normal life thing where you hold the complexity of multiple things being true at the same time, noticing, like online, even talking to family on other side of the country, like people who feel, empathetic people, people who are connected to community and kind of have, like that collective empathy, the hopelessness for about three months was just so intense. And I feel like, you know, we can, there's a lot around what's happening in the US right now. But I think I think a small sliver of that has been lifted just because change, whatever that change will turn out to be we don't know. And a little bit of that was lifted. But I think that struck me the hardest, the grief and the pain that was felt by the rest of the world. It just felt like it was something that I was interacting with on a daily basis in so many ways, so many ways.
Sofie Hagen
A few weeks or months ago, you posted something on Instagram that said something along the lines of it's okay not to be okay.
Jes Baker
Yeah.
Sofie Hagen
And you said that it was sort of like a, like a revelation of a sort, like something that had just occurred to you how it feels, it feels like such a simple sort of instagrammable quote, but it's when you actually think about it, and you feel it, you're like, oh, oh, this is deep.
Jes Baker
Yeah, I think it was one of the things you can either write one sentence, or you could write like an entire book about it. And I just opted for the one sentence. But I do remember, it actually was quite recent, I had this moment where, it was probably about a month ago. And I think when you're in a supporting profession or place where you're assisting other people and showing up for them, there's this need to be able to show up for people. And I am very aware of the fact that I can dissociate from myself, like I've been trained by the world to be able to disassociate from my body right in my brain. So I'm pretty good at this and I can pull that trick out of my hat and show up for other people. But what I realised is in this way of caring, and I've shared this with a lot of people in my closer life. What I ended up doing was forcing myself to be the person who was okay throughout. Who was like, I understand that this is traumatic and we're all going through it, like I get it, I get it on a level and I'm okay so let me show up in the world in this way. And the reality is it took like one last thing it was just talking about, like those self care things have been taken away. There was this virtual self care thing that was like, all I looked forward to was like every Sunday, this thing would happen. And then that thing stopped. And it was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back. And I was like, what the fuck? Are you really going to take everything away from me like, this is the last thing I had. And it was another moment that I was like, I'm not okay. And I've been telling myself that I'm okay, I'll make it through this. And that is a coping skill, and it worked for eight months. And now we're at the point where the reality is that I had been, like white knuckling my healing. Because I had done a lot of personal work. Obviously, we're sitting home alone, right? Like you have to do a lot of shadow work there. I've done all this work and like taking care of myself, but what I was doing was not recognising how not okay, it was and so I was like, kind of like decoupaging like all of this, like other self care work, and like, I don't know, like healing things plastering, on top of trying to hide the fact that I deeply wasn't okay. And just let myself say that to my partner, and I was like, 'you know what, I'm not okay. None of this is okay. Our world is not okay. And like, our country is not okay, nothing is okay. And I'm not okay.' And there was the sense of relief. And it opened up this channel where I could be more free than I had been, I wasn't compacted into this little, you know, perfect, okay being, I was allowed to fully expand, and that is the really frustrating part about healing is like, in order to have more control, not in a bad way, but like more autonomy, you are required to let go of the concept of control altogether. And I just think that's a dirty trick from the universe. But that's what's required. And so when I was able to be like, I am not okay, this is not okay, we are not okay. And I was able to kind of just breathe for the first time. And exhale, I think that was what I was missing. And even though it opened some doors, like we're not okay still, still not okay. But there is some pressure that has been relieved in just acknowledging that. And that's, that's a very long book version of that one sentence.
Sofie Hagen
And we've talked about this, we talked about this quite a bit about this, you really want to be good, like you really want to be I don't know if it's even perfect, but you want to do the right thing all the time in quite a extreme way. Like you're not really, you don't really allow yourself to be flawed.
Jes Baker
Me personally?
Sofie Hagen
Yeah.
Jes Baker
Oh yeah, it's my biggest fear
Sofie Hagen
But you know that everyone's flawed.
Jes Baker
In theory. There's always a logical part also, have you ever like, I've heard this so often, like, I think everyone else's [inaudible] is wonderful and beautiful, but not mine. It was like a common sentiment we have when we're like trying to grow within like the body image movement or the acceptance movement and like everyone else is okay, but not me. And yeah, I'm like so here for nuance and growth and then also like that grace does not apply to me at all. And if we're going to be honest, that's some deep fuckin childhood trauma shit that is why I pay a therapist. But yeah, there really is that element of that ties into being okay and ties into how I feel like I should show up for others deeply died tied to the need to be good and perfect. And if I am not, then you know, we swing to the opposite side of that, you know, there's no continuum in my brain for some reason, like, you are good and perfect or you are very bad. And you know, we call it outer darkness, when you're Mormon. There's no hell it's outer darkness, but essentially like, you're bad and going to outer darkness, which is that
Sofie Hagen
Sounds worse than hell.
Jes Baker
Satan lives. Yeah, totally. I mean, Mormonismhas definitely informed a lot of ways I see the world so outer darkness, right
Sofie Hagen
Outer darkness. That sounds really terrifying. I'd rather go to hell than to the outer darkness.
Jes Baker
I don't even know have a visual of like, what outer darkness is. It's like hell, we picture right? Yeah, this is like, what happens there?
Sofie Hagen
Well, I think hell is sort of like, downstairs, it's in a basement. There's a lot of fire. Darkness is like cold and in the air and outside and it's just big black hole, like it's really terrifying.
Jes Baker
Yeah, yeah. Well Mormons, so Mormonism...
Sofie Hagen
If you will excuse me, I'm just gonna try and get my, I thought we could have the door open, but we couldn't. [talking to the dog] Lost your outside privileges. Go away. I'm sitting there, go away. Sorry about that.
Jes Baker
Is that part gonna make it into the podcast? Because that was fantastic.
Sofie Hagen
I think we might have to because there's been a lot of dog sounds in the background. So it's good to show the reality of like my life at the moment. Oh, sorry. You said about Mormonism.
Jes Baker
Oh, I was just I don't know if a lot of people know this. But the afterlife is very complicated. There's actually three versions of like, quote unquote, heaven ish people. Oh, and then there's outer darkness. So there's celestial kingdom, which is like where the most perfect people go. And then there's terrestrial kingdom, which is like a lower underneath that. And then there's telestial kingdom, which is underneath that and you are sorted according to your righteousness. So and then, you know, if you don't make it into this top three, you're shit out of luck and in outer darkness. Isn't that interesting? There's four options.
Jes Baker
I can see how that would be. I mean, that's like the difference between being able to just pass or fail a grade, and then you know, getting grades. That didn't make sense. Pass or fail a class or get grades.
Jes Baker
Yes.
Sofie Hagen
If you don't get the top grade. Well, fuck everything.
Jes Baker
Yeah, yes. That's really interesting. I've never ever talked about this. Definitely not publicly but like I've never analysed this that's really fascinating. But there are essentially it's not pass or fail classes are definitely grades that you want to I mean, does that play into my overachievement part of me probably.
Sofie Hagen
I mean it would with me like, I'm like, I'm already feeling anxious that I wouldn't get into the real good heaven bit and not the meh you're fine bit
Jes Baker
Do we really want mediocre heaven, like that's the question
Sofie Hagen
And you're there forever, and you're just like, oh god, I didn't do well enough to get into the good heaven. Yeah.
Jes Baker
For the rest of eternity.
Sofie Hagen
That definitely played into your issues. Oh, that's horrible and then the outer darkness. That's terrifying. You're just rocking a smile. You're like, yeah
Jes Baker
It's fascinating.
Sofie Hagen
Yeah, definitely.
Jes Baker
It's a sidebar, but I just thought maybe you would like to know about the complexities of the afterlife
Sofie Hagen
Yeah, definitely. Scary. It's creepy. I'm gonna close the door. Now it feels less less scary. Go back to when you said that you've been trained by the world to dissociate?
Jes Baker
Oh, well, you know, I think, the most fundamental form that I can think of, and maybe it's just because I worked in, or I was working on so many body image things and like body acceptance and fat acceptance. And it really struck me first, before I understood, you know, the, the nervous system, part of it and the dissociation part, how disconnected we are, you know, at the neck, our head it works, you know, separately from our body, which is, like, when we look at diet culture, it could look like our body saying it's hungry and our brain saying, shut the fuck up, you're wrong, right? So we're just trained that way to be completely, we don't understand the communication of our body, and we don't believe it. And so I think that that plays a huge role. And the other part I didn't know until later was when you look at the nervous system within our body and the messages that it you know, the reactions that it has to triggers and trauma, and the way it copes with extreme pain. And that, you know, one of the highest levels being disassociation when the pain becomes too much. And, you know, I didn't even realise that's what I was doing. But that is now that I know I see it all over the place, right, and it's a really nice term to have just because you can name it, doesn't mean it feels fun. But it's, you know, it's also something that we need to do at certain times, because our body is trying to protect us from that pain. But I definitely am an expert at it. And that's something I'm working on is, you know, widening my ability to handle stressors without going into that disassociation unless I choose it, which is ideal. Does that make sense to you?
Sofie Hagen
Yeah, I think it does. But I'm wondering if it makes sense to people who have not dissociated. I think I saw somewhere on Instagram or somewhere, someone saying that they, that someone had asked them what dissociation was, and they couldn't explain the feeling.
Jes Baker
I think you would be way better qualified to try and explain it. You're way more eloquent. Yeah.
Sofie Hagen
I mean, I think I would just say that it's like, you don't really exist, you're not really there, its like the opposite of being present and aware. Right, sort of, like glazed over all the time. Like an hour passes in a second because you're not really there.
Jes Baker
And I think if you look at like, the Trauma Institute has like this. I'm gonna call it an illustration. But it's, it's to help you understand, like, the different activity levels of the nervous system. And there, there's a part where it's stuck on on or off. And, you know, for me, that's kind of how I disassociate and it can look like two extreme waves. So like, one is hyperactivity, anxiety, like mania, that kind of thing can be when we're stuck is when we're kind of in that space. And then the other one is the exact opposite, which is like lethargy and just feeling a lot of depression and not moving. But either way, we're, you know, I feel like I'm kind of outside my body there might be either I don't recognise it, and I don't know what's happening. Or I'm hyper aware that I'm kind of outside looking at my body, instead of being whole within myself. Like it's very fragmented. For sure.
Sofie Hagen
Fragmented, that's a really good word for it. Fragmentation. I think my therapist used that recently.
Jes Baker
So did mine! Word of the week
Sofie Hagen
In the international therapist newsletter. It's like those pranks you do where you're like, oh, when you speak to the customer service, try and get the word banana into the conversation. They've all gotten the memo. You can say defragmentated to clients, you've won. Gotcha.
Jes Baker
And they're like, just pass it along.
Sofie Hagen
That's a new word
Jes Baker
Today's episode is brought to you from letter F and the word fragmentation.
Sofie Hagen
I want to ask you about the internet. But I want, well first I want to ask if you are okay talking about it.
Jes Baker
Yeah. I'll talk to you about anything.
Sofie Hagen
Okay. Then I want to ask... However, I then want to ask if you if you'd be okay with talking about the internet with a lot of self compassion and less qualifying.
Jes Baker
Can you explain to me more about that?
Sofie Hagen
Yes. Yes, I can. I will do it now. I want to ask you about the things like the the more sort of traumatising things about the internet, and I know that part of that you would be able to sort of push away from you as in to say, you know, obviously, that's all you know, I, I can take it, I understand, you know, being like, because you're such an empathetic person and super intelligent as well. But I wonder if you're willing to talk about the internet in a way where you're just, well, what you probably would call selfish but which wouldn't be selfish at all just self compassionate.
Jes Baker
Hmm, that feels really tricky, because I know this will have an audience. And so there always is that underlying like, but will anyone understand that the you know, the logic and understanding and all of that is underneath this conversation. So maybe if we just put this as like a 'just so you know, all of this comes with the awareness'. Whatever it is that I always feel compelled to the what did you call it?
Sofie Hagen
Qualifying?
Jes Baker
Yeah, the qualification of why and how, and I will try and be soft, I'll do my best.
Sofie Hagen
Yeah, I feel like I mean, at least the listeners who have always listened. And I feel like we've all we all know that there's a constant sort of, like we have, we acknowledge our privilege, we know that there are nuances. You know, people aren't born evil. You know, there's a lot of, I think, I feel like I'm looking at the microphone as if that's the audience. We're good at this. We can do this, we can understand nuance. I feel like it's because of, you know, whenever you've mentioned, you know, we talk a lot. And whenever we talk about sort of, like you used to, you said, the internet used to be like, your everything, and you lived on social media. And now, it's not as fun for you anymore. So I wonder what happened because this was before we sort of really knew each other.
Jes Baker
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, I think the most tangible thing that makes sense to me is, I've shifted in what I do for work, so for probably seven years, but like Instagram, and blogging and advertisements on the side of my blog, and other social media was a big source of my income. So even if I didn't feel safe, or okay, or like, I don't think I was very aware at all what was happening, but I just pushed through it, because that was what I had to do. And, you know, I talk, I talk to people who, you know, that Instagram, just, you know, we're in our 30s, so we do Instagram, and Instagram is still an integral part of their business. And so the ability to step away from it a little bit isn't possible. But with coaching, which I only mentioned once, which I've only mentioned once online, I don't need to anymore. And so it's given me the ability to have some distance. And then I'm like, this is kind of nice. And then again, it opens up the space for you to investigate a little bit more. So I think that really is the catalyst. But that took me it's taken me several years to build up this coaching practice, you know, training and building and learning and so many pieces. [Underneath the second half of this paragraph there is growling and barking from Hank]
Sofie Hagen
Are you saying you didn't really know that it was a lot for you before you got out of it?
Jes Baker
I think I knew that it was painful in some ways, but I was like, well, this is just what life is. That's just what it is. And you know, in the message to see here, well just expect abuse if you're going to be visible online. And this is where you don't want me to say anything, but there is the world where my brain can logically understand that, like this goes hand in hand with that. But when I have been able to step back a little bit
Sofie Hagen
[Woof!] Go lie down. My dog not you. Just to be absolutely clear, that was for my dog not for you. 'There was that really traumatising thing on Instagram.' 'Yeah, you idiot go lie down.' This podcast is taking a very different turn. Here's some treats, go lie down! Because the neighbours have the audacity to...
Jes Baker
Your podcast is gonna be very different from now on, Hank is a part of the family.
Sofie Hagen
So sorry, this is not good for the flow. I mean, the empathy, I'm so sorry.
Jes Baker
It's okay. It's okay. I don't remember what I was saying. Able to sit back, didn't need it, and then I was like, holy shit.
Sofie Hagen
Because there's a difference in understanding, we understand why people send you abuse like not you you but why people would send one abuse. But it's different than that. One thing is understanding it. Another thing is receiving it.
Jes Baker
Well, I have to admit, and I have to admit that I'm a little bit jealous of you and of people who are similar to you. Because I did a bunch of interviews before I wrote Land Whale with these with tonnes of fat activists and we were talking about the vulnerability piece and handling the abuse online. And so many people were affected in the same way I was. And there were a couple people who were not. And that blew my mind because I was just like, what is the secret? And what's the similarity? So I'm a little jealous of people, because it doesn't affect them in the same way that it, it hits some part of me. And I thought I was weak and broken. And now I just realise it's something to do with circumstances outside my control when I was much younger. So at least I can take some of the blame off of me, but I don't think it it doesn't make it any easier. And then it really does just hit the very wounded part of me where it becomes very difficult, more so than others.
Sofie Hagen
Well, it's I think it's, in some ways, I think I'm just good at compartmentalising that part. And I think that became quite clear when I feel horrible when I send you a parcel. And then Amazon gave me a picture of where they left the parcel. So I just send it to you, as if to say, Oh, go check here, the parcel is there. And then you freak the fuck out because is my address online, who put this up? And I was like, of course, you'd freak out, I'd freak out. And I think we would I think we're equally freaked out about something like that. Because we both have the same core feelings about this. Like when I got a photo that was seemingly taken through my letterbox and I moved house because fuck, I think we have the same. You know, even though it can day to day, I might be better at not thinking about it. But it's still there deep down inside that there are people wanting to kill me like to say that not in like a dramatic way, but that is what they've said. Yeah, I don't think they'd actually ever do it. But there's enough threats that
Jes Baker
We don't know. I mean, that's the reality is we don't know. So yeah, no, you're right. You're right. The compartmentalization piece of separating worth is very difficult for me. And I don't like saying that publicly. I would never say it on anyone else's podcast. But um, I don't I don't like that part. Because it feels incredibly childish and young minded. But the reality is that where it's coming from? God, yeah, I really don't like talking about that. But that's the reality. And I, you know, I feel like, in the same way that I did 10 years of therapy while writing Land Whale, kind of, I feel like I've done 10 years of therapy in the last 11 months. And I gain everything from looking at those really hard parts. And so I'm willing to talk about it now, I suppose.
Sofie Hagen
I suppose. I think it's a very natural, normal human feeling to wanting to feel safe. Because that's essentially what it is like getting threats or like unwanted messages, or just knowing there are people who hate you for just no reason. Of course, that's a feeling of unsafety. And that's one of the main needs that we have right is to feel safe.
Jes Baker
Yes, that's the deepest part. And I think there's the more superficial part, though, where I am perceived by a lot of people as being very strong and very resilient, andI am strong, and I am resilient. And right, this is where we're holding two things, and they're both true. It feels kind of like a divergence from my identity to be in this place, because it doesn't feel like I'm strong and resilient. Although, I know that looking at the stuff honestly and truthfully, is strength and is resiliency, it's just it's complicated, isn't it?
Sofie Hagen
Is that, does that have anything to do with your now feelings about social media? The idea that it doesn't seem like the Internet has space for both, or that the internet I mean, it feels like it's so much better if you can fit into a box and you are the person who does this and you are the strong person or you are the vulnerable person or you are, and suddenly it really doesn't feel like there's a lot of room to just be a human being, or am I want to projecting right now?
Jes Baker
You might be and I might also resonate. Yes, definitely. And I think that um, oh, there was a lot that you just said that feels so true. Well first of all, equating success with Instagram numbers. It is much better if you are talking about things on a very superficial level so that new people can find you and understand and I am very good at that. Like That is why 'Things No One Will Tell Fat Girls' was such a success is because it was meeting people at this very beginning point because I really wanted people to have this information. And now I'm at a place where, you know, and I've tested the internet over the years, like, I remember writing something that was so nuanced and like, I put everything in that I could possibly. And it just, you know, we skim and see what we want to see. And the the comment section was just uncontrollable. And I had done every precaution I could, and I was like, oh, okay, we can't have, this is why I really like books, we can't have these conversations on the internet. Like there is a, there is a limitation. there's a cap on the complexity we can have. And I just think right now at this point in my life, I'm mired in complexity.
Sofie Hagen
You're what?
Jes Baker
Mired?
Sofie Hagen
[Whispers] What does that mean
Jes Baker
Like a...I'm in the thick of it?
Sofie Hagen
Oh, okay. Yes
Jes Baker
In the thick of it. And so my brain is thinking in different ways. And it's very hard for me, too. That's why I put one sentence, right? One sentence and a photo, and, or somebody else's words, because I feel like everything else that's coming in me, one, I don't fully understand it myself, I just know pieces of it. And two, it doesn't feel like something... I just don't I don't feel like I can really show up in a, I don't know what to call it. The just the top level of conversation. Not that there's anything wrong with the beginning of conversations, because they're very important. And we need them. But I just find myself without the ability to really speak that language right now. So I think it's just a combination of a lot of things. You're right.
Sofie Hagen
Do you think, do you miss? Do you miss it when it was just simple and back to basics and...
Jes Baker
Desperately. It was so fun. It was so fun to take pictures of like beautiful outfits and be like, you know, and, uh, you know, just kind of fell off and not, you know, there's something to that. But yeah, I missed that. You know, also, I'm going to be honest, I think that the more aware you become of the violence and the depth of just the depth of things like racism, and ableism, and of mental health, one of the things that strikes me to my core is is working with folks who don't have homes. I feel a lot of that around. I think there's a different term and I don't know the correct term, but homelessness. There's like something about houses, I don't know the politically correct term. But anyways, homelessness really affects me. Because I've worked with those folks in behavioural health, intimately and love them. And so there's something also about the gravity of the things that you know, the more you learn, you're just like but do I care today? Like do I care about dresses anymore? Not really, like I'm not wearing makeup. I'm wearing leggings like so this reevaluation this year like, and all I can change my mind at any time, right? I reserve the right to be like, nah we need more. We need more bullshit out there to like, lighten up the mood. And you know, maybe that's something that will come later. I don't know.
Sofie Hagen
I totally get like I did a post about I've done a very specific posts saying, okay, fine. I know that body image stuff is complicated. So just ask me a question, like, use this thread to ask me a question. And then someone asked me a question that was fat phobic. And then people started piling on this person and like being very aggressive towards them. So then I did a new post where I said, hey, context, nuance, you know, and we, this person within this context, yes. Was that called for? Because I'd invited it in. Let's just like you're not, don't shower the person in this situation. And that was one of my most popular posts, because people were like, yes. Just be nice, be kind and I was like, no, no. And then you find yourself going, mo, listen, this is why you should not be kind. And it's, again, the thing of you picking it apart going, nuance, no, shut up. It does matter, the context does matter, just niceness. Yes, be kind. We're all the same. And then you find yourself arguing against kindness, because people don't want to understand it. And then that's the most popular post you do, because everyone can share a post that says love each other. Because it's so simple.
Jes Baker
Yeah, and it's what we want the world to be not what it is. And especially now, you know, there's something interesting about everyone being in a very similar position globally. And that I just think it's extraordinary to watch all of us, you know, there's, of course, you know, um, people are experiencing it very differently depending on resources, etc, etc. But, you know, this desperate need for lightheartedness. That's just like, so prevalent, and I understand why. And that's why I'm so glad for people like you. And I know, I think another part of it is that I hold so much space throughout the week, for so many people, just I think an almost incalculable amount of space. And I love it. And that's what I want to be doing. And I love everything about it. But I think also that disrupts my ability to hold any space in other places. So I'm always just so grateful when I see posts like that, and then the correction, because that's what's needed. And I also don't have the can for that right now.
Sofie Hagen
I mean, do you have space for yourself?
Jes Baker
Well, depends on the day. I think a lot of us, myself included, when we do have spacewe like to fill it up, back to where it feels comfortable. So I'm getting comfortable with not filling it up, and maybe listening to what my body needs. It's an interesting experiment.
Sofie Hagen
Tell me about, if you are willing to, now I can't pronounce it Chateau Diaries.
Jes Baker
I will tell you all about it. I fell into an escapism hole on YouTube. I don't know how it really happened, but just think the algorithm was looking out for me. And there is this? I mean, apparently this has been going on forever. Just I didn't know about it. There's a lot of folks from England, where it's expensive to live, selling their flats or whatever and then buying what they call a derelict chateau in France. I don't know why it's England and France. I don't know. But anyways, there's tonnes of falling apart chateaus and then they go and...
Sofie Hagen
What is a chateau? A house?
Jes Baker
A giant fucking house. I mean, all of them have 40 rooms, some of them had like 120 rooms.
Sofie Hagen
It's like a mansion.
Jes Baker
Yes, but also owned by, I mean, from like, the 17th and 18th centuries, like, owned by very high up people. Sometimes fortresses and moats can be involved and protected from wars and all of that. So like lots of history.
Sofie Hagen
Oh, wow. Okay. Okay.
Jes Baker
Um, yeah. And so there's one in particular, that one drew me in because it felt like a British Bake Off substitute, and it was called doing it ourselves. But I quickly got bored with that one. And I found one that was even more escapist. And it's called the Chateau Diaries, and it follows this blonde waify, Stephanie Jarvis, who is just overwhelmingly optimistic and dreamy, as if she's a dreamer, who's like been working on the Chateau for 15 years and has all of these, I never watched soap operas, but I feel like it's a soap opera without the drama and sex, which sounds like not interesting, but it's kind of the best. So she has these people from all over the world come do work away and like help her restore the Chateau and you fall in love with them. And it is just, I think in the middle of so much pain and violence. That is our reality. I think a lot of people are searching for you know, the bubbly stuff. And if they can't live it, somebody else can and we can watch them. There's 180 episodes now. Yeah, I have watched every single one. I am restarting. I am restarting and I cannot believe that I'm saying that on on this podcast. But yes. Anyways, it's just lovely because it makes you um, I think what I really love about it is the playfulness. Sofie, if I'm going to be totally honest and boil it down, the person, Stephanie is so playful and a dreamer and so she will go have a picnic. For fun with her friend, and then they'll go to the river. And instead of having it by the river, they will find this giant stone in the middle of the river. And then they'll trek their champagne and bacon sandwiches to the middle of the river lay out a little blanket and have their picnic in the middle of the river with champagne flutes. I mean, it's just incredible. And then also, there's the part that's like, well, then I could go for a drive, you know, or they're renovating like a grand salon. I'm like, well, I guess I could clean my office closet. So there's that part too, it kind of gets parts of me moving. Anyways, I could go on forever. This is not sponsored, just really into it.
Sofie Hagen
I think there's something so beautiful about your love for this show and sort of the lightness of everything feels so light when you're talking about it. Like there's a value in escapism, it's not all bad.
Jes Baker
Yeah, I think I'm learning to listen to the cues of my of my brain and my body, especially working together. And sometimes there is that turn off that we need for a moment. And I've tried denying myself that before. And it turns out, you burn out real fast. So I'm grateful for the Chateau Diaries. I need to hold on I've even something about you that just makes me say all the things. I even assessed my talents and skills to see if I can apply for a workaway programme and go live at the Chateau de leBlond. And I was like fuck, what do I offer? They already have cooking and I was like, branding. I can help with branding, but they have people to do that. And I'm like, fuck it. I'll shear the sheep, like I don't know I'll do, I'll do anything. Like how do you make an application with my qualifications? I don't know, I'll figure it out.
Sofie Hagen
You're a professional baker.
Jes Baker
I am.
Sofie Hagen
They must need a baker for their picnics and stuff
Jes Baker
I think if they start doing weddings, I'll just tell them I can come to the wedding cakes. Yes. Wouldn't that be amazing? Stephanie Jarvis. You're gonna get an email.
Sofie Hagen
As you definitely listen to this. Yeah. This playful, happy, dreamy person loves a weekly little talk about trauma and social injustice.
Jes Baker
What if somebody who watches this also because it's like a hugely tight knit community, listens and is like, PS there's this weirdo in Tucson. Like, if this is found before my application, it's definitely a no go.
Sofie Hagen
I think that I mean, sorry, I'm just taking a note of what will become the title of this episode. 'PS there's this weirdo in Tucson.' What have you...So you say you do these workshops now. Um, yeah. I feel like you're a person. No, I don't feel like I know that you're a person with so much....What's the right word, knowledge, tools, resources, advice. I feel like everyone would have a conversation with you and then feel better. So if we say that a lot of people right now are listening and statistically knowing my audience, it's winter, everything sucks. A lot of us will not be feeling that good. What's a piece of advice or something that you would tell us to make us feel better?
Jes Baker
Hmm. I think maybe allowing the terrifying feelings to happen. The ones that we the ones that we are afraid that if we even look at them, they'll never go away. Or if we get into bed, we may never get back out of bed. You know, those feelings. Feeling them is absolutely terrifying, and very difficult. And there's no way to minimise that. What I have realised is that the battle that we play with ourselves, the back and forth of and I'm feeling this way, no, you're not get it together. No, but I'm really exhausted and so sad. No, you're not. You have all these blessings, you know, that drains us of so much energy in and of itself. And if we were to not fight it. And know that that is, it's our, it's our body and our brain telling us something very important. And if we kind of honour that and allow ourselves to feel it, it does get better, it does get better, it isn't the endless dark hole that we think it will be. And I can never promise how long it will take. But it there is an end to that. And there is a really beautiful gift into allowing ourselves to feel those things, as painful as they are. And there is an ease that comes without the battle. Like when we remove the battle, there's an ease that comes, that is like a sigh of relief. We don't know that until we let ourselves go there. And it's very scary. But I would highly recommend an experiment like that. It's okay to have those feelings, they're necessary and important. And also fighting them just kind of keeps us in them, makes them bigger, make them thicker, drains us of our energy to cope. I like the idea of reclaiming that energy. You know, having a little bit more to... Yeah, that would be my that would be my, my offering. Yeah, take it or leave it.
Sofie Hagen
Do you ever have to remind yourself of it?
Jes Baker
Every day
Sofie Hagen
Every single day
Jes Baker
Multiple times a day. Yeah. Cuz it's scary every time Sofie.
Jes Baker
Yeah, it really is.
Jes Baker
I'm training myself to be like we do make it out of this dark, like endless, whatever, with like a deep, dark pit. Like I always climb out of it. But like, why would we want to go in there in the first place, but the reality is that we're gonna eventually like our bodies and brains gonna, like do what they need to do. So let's see, what happens if we meet it with a little bit of gentleness and compassion and go there, knowing that we're strong enough to get out somehow, we don't have to do it in the moment. What do you think?
Sofie Hagen
Well, I was I was just going to add, because that's all perfect. I'm just going to add that like, because everything is so COVIDdy, and we're all working, well we're not all working from home, but everyone's job, most people's jobs are sort of, in this weird place. And I think there's a lot of this capitalist idea of work, I think that's being challenged a lot at the moment. And what you have been so good at with my brain has been to remind me that brain work is also work. So if I'm in bed all day, because my brain is just killing me, I'm still working, even though I haven't produced anything that could make money. And so I still had a busy day, I've still had a hard day's work. And I can still just serve, you know, just a night off. You know, instead of beating yourself up that you've just been in bed all day, well, you haven't, you know, you've not been bored. You've been like the whatever analogy you want to use, the demons in your head have been arguing and fighting and the, the your energy is drained, like actually, because it's so so hard to struggle.
Jes Baker
And we are having physical reactions to this thing network we're saying is in our head, like our body is feeling all these things, and it is physical exhaustion as well. And, you know, I think about how that would play out when you do have to work a certain amount of, you know, it's non negotiable. In that case, you know, allowing, allowing the collapse to happen, you know, we're so good as humans at holding it together for as long as we need to. But what happens when we do that it's kind of like, you know, when we do something really hard, and like a huge project or something or a huge goal or milestone, and then we get sick afterwards, our body's holding it together and like, then it can release, you know, how would that apply if we, you know, didn't have any leeway around what our schedules are. And you know, I don't have children like I'm not responsible for little adults. Um, but you know, when we do have the ability and our bodies do collapse, because they do eventually. I'm just acknowledging that this is part this is not failure. This is not you being broken. This is not your fault. This is just what happens when we're pushed and allowing that to be maybe just even mentally thinking: 'This is what's happening right now. I don't have to enjoy it. But I also don't have to beat myself up about having these moments because they're necessary.' Does that make sense?
Sofie Hagen
I think so.
Jes Baker
I just got like really finger wavy. Maybe I don't remember what I just said 10 minutes ago. But as long as it makes sense to you, we're good.
Sofie Hagen
It does. It does. Thank you so much for doing this. What I'm going to do now is as to plug some things, and then I'm going to ask you six extra fun questions for the Patreon because if I remember correctly,
Jes Baker
I never got to do it
Sofie Hagen
Well, yes, but also because the first time I think I was too starstruck, so I just shut it down. Like, and then the second time, we were about to do a huge show in front of 900 people. And things were just a tiny bit stressed. So now I can actually do it. So that is the plan. So first of all, plug yourself where can people find your stuff?
Jes Baker
Well, when I feel like being on Instagram, I'm under The Militant Baker. And really, I haven't I can't believe this either. I haven't blogged since the promotion of The World is On Fire back in December. So it's been a year since I've blogged but if you want I mean, there's billions of people out there who don't know me. So if you would like to read some body image mental health things, themilitantbaker.com is where all those live. And there's years and years of posts and podcasts and resources. And then if you're interested in workshops or coaching, JesBaker.com is where that stuff lives. Yeah.
Sofie Hagen
And you have two...
Jes Baker
Oh, yeah. I wrote two books. Yeah. I wrote two books. Things No One Will Tell Fat Girls is a handbook that like covers all the basics that I wished were all together in one book from history to stuff that's in academia now to just shooting the shit. And people tend to really love that one. And then Land Whale is a memoir, kind of grappling with the more deep nuanced parts of living in a fat body and what that all means and yeah, they both have red spines, which is lovely. It's not common to have a lot of red spined books, for some reason, but both.
Sofie Hagen
I've never noticed that.
Jes Baker
And how many books you have some time.
Sofie Hagen
Count how many books how many red spine books I have?
Jes Baker
Compare to other colours.
Sofie Hagen
I will I have nothing else to do. So that's it one day gone. Great. Another thing to put on my to do list. Sure, I'll move it right up to priority number one. Thank you so much for doing this.
Jes Baker
Oh my god. Anytime Sofie, I just love you. And I love your community too
[Musical outtro]
Sofie Hagen
Thank you so much for listening. Do go and find Jes on all of the social media and follow her and tell her thank you for doing the podcast. I always love when you do that. I love this community. There's a big Facebook group not big, very few people are allowed in Actually, I very rarely mention it but there is a sort of semi secret Facebook group for this podcast. And we're doing a secret santa this year. I'm sorry for you not telling you now because it's too late now for you to join, but I've been buying some presents on Etsy for my secret santa or the person I am a secret santa for, whatever it's called. I'm just it's I think it's fun. I don't know I just wanted, I just think it says a lot about the listenership of this podcast is that you're the type of people who would do secret santa with strangers online and I think that's beautiful. But who knows maybe I'm just in the Christmas spirit even though it's well at the time of me recording this. It's still November, but I have Christmas lights in the windows and I have a Christmas roast in the oven because I am spending Christmas alone because of COVID. So I am practising making Christmas food just for me. This is in fact an almost three kilos roast. I mean, I'm gonna have to have it for dinner tonight. And then breakfast, lunch and dinner the next two days. So that'll be fun. Now, if you have enjoyed this podcast at any point then please do consider giving a donation either via PayPal or becoming a patron. All of the details are on madeofhumanpodcast.com if you are a patron and you give more than $5 or the equivalent in your currency per episode for a month, you become a friend of the podcast, you become a VIP, you become a person who will get their name read out loud at the end of the episode which is now, so I want to say a massive thank you to these absolute wonderful people.
[Long list of names]
You are wonderful. Thank you so so much for listening. I am still in the process of doing like a bit of a rebrand. You may already be able to tell, maybe, maybe not. This will come out fairly soon. From the moment we're recording it so who knows. But I will try and keep you up to date. Thank you so much for being just the absolute best. I want to say I'm very hesitantly going to say a massive thank - oh there it was, I found the list was a massive thank you to: you for listening, to my good friend Jes for being a guest again. I want to say a massive thank you to Dave Pickering, the most patient person in the world for editing this episode, to Harriet Brain for writing and recording the jingle, and Justine McNichol for the logo. This podcast was produced by me, speak to you soon, bye!