Episode 15 – Miranda Kane
Transcription by Zac Hilliker
Sofie: Thank you for listening to the MohPod, the Made of Human Podcast. I am Sofie Hagen. I’m your host, and I am in Liverpool, and I am recording this in my hotel room, and I’ve just had ribs. Lots and lots of ribs. And, I’ve had the best thing to come out of your wonderful country of the United Kingdom, which is eton mess. It’s the best thing in the entire world, and I could probably eat like a ton of eton mess in a day!
So, I’m in a fairly good mood. I had a minor breakdown last night because, uh, I had my show at the Phoenix in London, which is called Sofie Hagen is Alone with Other People, and there were tickets out for the 10th of January, Jan-U-ary, Jan….Jan…Jan 10th, and you can go and get tickets for that on the Phoenix Artist’s Club website. But after the show, which was wonderful, and a lot of my friends came and did new material and stuff, one of the comedians suggested we went to another place. And we were having such a great time, and I thought “Yes, let’s go, and and have fun and whatever,” but then this other place was this awful, I mean… It was one of those places where you would have to know it was there. So you go through like a dark alley, and then into like a door, and then you have to like knock 3 times on a wooden door, and a leprechaun comes out, and you have to answer the secret password, and it was awful. And then it’s just full of people! So many people! And we were like, just ran into this tiny little room. It was loud music, and people kept on saying, “Oh, and have you seen over there? There’s that celebrity from that thing!” And it was just, I hated it! I hated it! And I ended up being so anxious and so, feeling so horrible that I just started shouting at the guy who brought us… He’d done nothing wrong. It’s not his fault that I have anxiety, and I just started shouting at him, being like “I WILL NEVER TRUST ANYTHING YOU TELL ME EVER AGAIN!” [Giggles] It’s just not the best way of behaving…
So! Today I am slightly…only slightly hungover, uh, and uh, but I’m ready to do my show tonight in Liverpool, and I will try and um, and see if I can put this online before I go to my gig in about an hour.
So! That was just me, you knowing my state of mind at the moment. The guest in this episode, Episode 15 of the MohPod, is Miranda Kane. I imagine you don’t know who she is, and that’s not anything to say about her. She’s not like a massive name. She has a….her radio show is about to go out. I think it‘s her first radio show, and she’s done some shows in Edinburgh in which she talked about being a fat sex worker, or a plus-sized sex worker, or whatever, BBW, or whatever you wanna call it. And we talked quite a bit about that. She is soooo lovely, and I’m sure you’re gonna fall as much in love with her as I did. Um, we’ve been friends for years. Uh, I feel like telling you something about her, and I think this is a… I think this says something good about her. But, I’m afraid you’re going to think badly of… But, please…promise me to hear me out on this. So we were friends maybe 3 or 4 years ago. 3 years ago. And I had been seeing a guy a tiny bit, and then I had stopped seeing him, and I was kind of friends with her, but not like the closest of friends. Anyways, her and him like made out, and I lost it! I’m not good at jealousy and stuff, and um, oh my God I was… I shouted at him. I shouted at her. And I ended up meeting with her to talk things through, and we met at this cheap, uh, restaurant, and uh, we just got bottles and bottles of wine, and we talked it out, and we agreed that no man should come between a friendship, and fuck that guy, and we’re better than him, and all of that that….like all full, you know, chick lit, uh, woman power, whatever it is. And it was um, I’m so bad with jealousy that I think that I couldn’t have done that with a lot of women. I would’ve found it very hard, which is a bad thing, but Miranda is so cool, and so fucking tough. And we sent him a photo of us having wine together, and he just, he wrote back a message, and he just said “I’m moving to Libya.” We won. I feel like we won.
Anyways! Uh. She’s amazing, and I love her, and I think you can tell that we’re good friends, and um, we do talk about uh…it’s a controversial topic, isn’t it? Sex work. But I, uh, she opened my eyes, I think. And not that I wasn’t, I didn’t have any preconceived opinions. I didn’t really know what to, what to believe or what to think, but uh, she, she made points, and I’m pretty…Yeah! I’m pro sex work. I’m pro sex work, and I think we should all be. Ok? Ok. [Giggles] And if you have questions, listen to this episode because Miranda will probably answer most of them, and um, go and see her show, and and, catch her on Twitter, and um…Yeah, look her up, and make sure you check her out. Uh, I uh, I’ve already rambled quite a bit. I will just quickly say that, there is still a fewww, uh, very few tickets left for my Soho Theatre run in December, so go to sohotheatre.com to come and see my new show. There is a discount code, uh, called shimmer16, s-h-i-m-m-e-r 16, and uh, it gives you £2 off because they’re too expensive, and I do apologize for that. Not my fault. Someone else’s fault, and we’re not allowed to blame them. Anyways! I also have a Patreon account, and I’ve heard a lot of people be very upset about podcasters asking for money. I want you to know that it is your choice. I’m not…I’m not, well I am begging, but I’m not demanding anything. I love doing this and I will keep doing it. I am talking from the perspective of someone who, uh [Giggles] I’m at that point right now where whenever I pay with my credit card, I hold my breath because I don’t know when they’re gonna block it. Because it’s uh, being a comedian is nice, and I am full-time, and I do this for a living, but sometimes you will be working for 3 months and won’t get paid til the end of next year for the work that you’ve been doing for those 3 months, so uh, it does help a lot that I am able to, to go to my Patreon and to have you lovely people donate money, cause you are… I love you so much. Every time I get an email saying someone has pledged to give a dollar per episode, $10 per episode, I am sooo… I’m so happy. Like it makes me sooo… I mean. Just basically, like a lot of things has happened to this podcast in the last, um, like in the last weeks! A few weeks, I think! Where suddenly more and more people know about it and uh, they come up to me and tell me that their friend recommended it to them, and it makes me so happy, because I genuinely feel like… I feel like this is a really good product, like I feel like it’s a really good podcast, and it means so much to me that you share it with your friends, and you tweet about it, and that you… all the reviews on iTunes make me soooo happy! And I think we’re gonna, let’s take this far. Right? The more listeners it gets, the more more it gets, the the, the bigger guests we can get on, the…you know. People from all over the world, you know. I’m so, I’m so happy about this. And I am absolutely rambling. I really am. And uh, I’m not sorry. Not sorry. [Giggles] It’s my podcast. Anyways, thank you. Thank you for listening. I will now let you listen to my conversation with the uh, oh, wonderful Miranda Kane.
Sofie: It just won’t work for some reason.
Sofie: How, um? So you said you moved.
Miranda: It was…yeah. So it was...It was um. I think it’s because I’ve just spent a year sort of being a bit of um, mmm.
Sofie: I got it right? I just guessed that word.
Miranda: You did! Well done! [Laughing] I love these podcasts. I was listening to them, all of them, and then like half of it is talking to your mates and half of it is “Sofie Hagen learns new words.”
Sofie: I just had one with Dan Schreiber where I tried to say S-P-U, I was trying to say S-P-U for once, no U-S-P. Oh shit.
Sofie: I’m such an idiot, and it’s Dan Schreiber. He’s really clever. I was like “oh no.”
Miranda: [Laughing] Don’t worry, you got me now, so the pressure is off! It’s fine.
Sofie: So you were an recluse.
Miranda: An...Ahhhh…a recluse. Oh, so close!
Sofie: Oh, God. Let’s start this over.
Sofie: So you moved out of London to what?
Miranda: Yeah, I moved down to Dorset into like sort of very small-towny Dorset, ‘cause my mum, ummm, she’s getting old a bit, and she’s, she was getting ill, and she had a load of operations, and she just doesn’t know anyone, it’s just like… And it’s just so sad to see your parents lonely, you know. And because, so I was like, “Ahh! I’ll get her out. I’ll get her, you know, like doing her passions again. She wants to go to a quoir, and she wants to do art classes.” And it was just a year of trying to get her out, and different things were coming up, and she was making different excuses. And it was just like, “If you don’t go, I’m gonna move back. If you don’t go, I’m gonna move back,” because I’m feeling stagnant, and I’m feeling “an recluse.” [Both laugh] And so I was just, I was just trying to get her, you know, just making sure she was back in her fit state and back in her, back healthy, and then I was just like, and then I found this flat with a flatmate, and it was just so perfect. Back where I used to live, and I was just like, I either move now right before Edinburgh or the next time I get to move will be in October when it’ll be cold and horrible. So I was just like let’s just do it. So… [Chuckles]
Sofie: Oh, wow. So you just moved back.
Miranda: Yeah, yeahhh.
Sofie: Does it feel great?
Miranda: Ohhhh, it feels really nice, you know! Like, even just getting texts from people going “Oh, there’s a thing happening tonight,” and being able to go out and….you know, random nights out, and it’s, it’s, it’s a lot. It is nice, but it’s also nice to sort of look back and think, well I, you know, I tried. But it, it, it just didn’t work out, but like I also learned a lot of stuff about myself. You know. Back down south…like mainly, how much I fucking wanted to move to London! Uhhhh!! [Chuckles] As fast as my little legs could carry me!
Sofie: It’s often the feeling that when you go back, you’re like “Oh yeahh, I left…”
Miranda: “I left for a reason!” Oh, my God!
Sofie: What a great choice!
Miranda: Yeah! [Laughs] I’m so proud of myself. Well done, me.
Sofie: I think my mom loves being alone.
Sofie: She lovvves it! She loves it! She prefer, like she…it was quite fun, this… I just went home for like 20 days…
Sofie: …and living in mom’s flat. Which I loved, because she’s, you know, she works until 4 or 5, so I have the whole day just to myself in a flat with a kitchen without any housemates is amazing.
Sofie: And then, uh, like around the last couple of days, my mom was just like, “I’m really tired even though it’s 8 PM. I’m so tired.”
Sofie: And we talked a bit, cause she was like, “It’s weird because I’ve had my 8 hours of sleep and everything.” And I said, “Oh, do you think it’s because you’re an introvert, because you, like, introverted people need to be alone to get energy, so…but there’s been people around you at work, and then you come home, and then I’m in the living room…”
Sofie: “So you never get to be alone.” And she was like, “That’s it!” Of course that’s it, so she need..like she’s an introvert, she needs to be alone to be….energized.
Miranda: But that’s such a weird energy to have. You wouldn’t have thought like a mother and daughter would have that. But, or, like…
Miranda: I feel it with my mom, because I feel like we don’t know each other very well, and…
Sofie: You don’t know your…
Miranda: Nooo. Nooo, cause I didn’t live with my mum when…
Sofie: Ohhh, ok.
Miranda: When my parents split up, I lived with my dad.
Sofie: Oh, ok.
Miranda: So that for me was also like, let’s try to get to know this woman. [Laughs] Who plopped me out! [Laughs] So, like, you know, I hadn’t know her since we, like, since they divorced, and I was like 9 years old.
Miranda: So I can feel that off of her. We know that we can only spend a couple of hours together…
Miranda: And then it’s like, “Right. Now we’re arguing,” and I’m off. But like, if you’ve grown up with your mum, and, you’ve lived with her, then for me that sounds like a surprising… the old introvert energy thing…
Sofie: That’s interesting. Well, I don’t actually know any… I’ve never had a theory about whether or not that… I imagine it’s just people, like, all sorts of people will take away some energy, but, also me and my mom, we never just… That sounds negative. We never just have fun.
Sofie: Like, it’s always deep conversations about feelings, and we’re analyzing situations. It gets very very deep. We never just, you know, put on a film and just chill out. That’s not how we work.
Sofie: That’s not what we do. It always gets… and I love it. It’s great. We talk about really serious topics, so I get how that’s… and also I might be taking more energy because I’ve been alone all day, so I’m like “I’m ready!”
Miranda: Ohhhh, like a little puppy! Like “Yes! You’re home!”
Sofie: And she’s like “I just wanna sit down.”
Miranda: Yeassss. That would make sense.
Sofie: Yeah. But at the end, I was like, “I also need my own bed.”
Miranda: Yeah. [Giggles]
Sofie: I totally get it. I get it. It is so lovely having someone cleaning up the kitchen after you.
Miranda: Ohhh, that’s a Mother’s Day card in itself, like, “I’m so pleased you’re cleaning up the kitchen after me. Love you! Mean it!”
Sofie: So do you just…do you see yourself and your mom and/or your dad, like how do you…do you..
Miranda: I…yeah. I definitely see myself in my dad. Ummm. He was the, uhh…see, he gets to be called assertive, and I get to be called aggressive.
Sofie: Ok, so he was bossy and naggy.
Miranda: Yeahhh. Ha! And so am I! And he was very independent. He was very much like, he set up… like he was a manager of loads of big companies, like big entertainment companies, and ummm…it was very much his way or the highway. And sometimes everyone was like, “Yeah, ok. That is a great idea. That’s how we should do this.” And then when it came to people saying “No, we can’t do it that way,” then he’d be like, “Right. Well, fuck you. I’m off, and I’m gonna do something else.”
Miranda: Yeahh. Exactly.
Sofie: Yeah. I see, I see that in you.
Miranda: Yeah. [Laughing] No! Isn’t it awful?
Sofie: I think it’s fuckin great.
Miranda: I like it now. I’ve come to embrace it, and go, yeah ok, but when I didn’t know that was part of me and I felt ostracized and a bit, like, “Oh, my God! Why, why can’t I fit in? Why do I, I have to be the one taking over?” And it’s like, you know, because this is you. This is part of you. You know? So…
Sofie: One of the things I like a lot about you is your effectiveness.
Miranda: Oh, thank you!
Sofie: But I like that you can, like, there’s a feeling of, there’s no bullshit, you know. I don’t need to go…I don’t need to do…sorry, I’m so sorry. I don’t mean to be British about it, “Excuse me, I’m so sorry, but could I possibly…” Like with you, I can kinda go “BLAH! Question,” and you go “BOOM! Answer.” There’s no…
Miranda: Oh, yeah. I love that. I love that. Like when people can just go “Right. Miranda, this needs to be done.” I’m like, “Puhhh, right. Let’s do this!”
Sofie: Yeah, cause you…cause we…one of our relations, I guess, is that we both… You’re the venue manager of the venue where I…in which I did my gigs in Edinburgh.
Miranda: Oh! Yes! Yeah!
Sofie: And they do rooms under the free Fringe thing, which won’t make sense to most people who, unless they’re in comedy and stuff.
Sofie: You’re such an eff…such a good venue manager, because you’re not, like…You’re, yeah, efficient, I guess.
Miranda: Yeahhh. Cause I’m just like there’s no point…
Sofie: You’re a good leader because you listen.
Miranda: Oh, thank you.
Sofie: Like, you’re not…you get that with a lot of leader types, which you know…the people wanting power because, that turns them on. Just the fact that they’re in charge.
Sofie: But youuu, seem to be turned on by in working.
Miranda: Yes! Ohhhh, God, yeah!
Sofie: Is that right?
Miranda: Yeah, because I’m just like “Right. This is the best thing we can do.” So like, beforehand I’ll try and contact people, and say “Right. If you can bring up to Edinburgh your posters, make them laminated, get them in an A3, because when we get there, it’s gonna be absolutely horrendous for people to find their way out of the place.” I’m all for, if anyone’s got any suggestions for, you know, letting us know how to get people around, you know, “du du du du du duhhh.” Ummm. And then, but then the trick is, is to say, “Now it’s started. I did my thing at the beginning. Remember that. Now it started, and…your, your on your own,” you know?
Sofie: Yeahhh. Yeah, I’m not good at that. “Miranda, where’s the door?”
Sofie: “Miranda! Miranda, I’m lost at the door! Do I knock, or do I ring the doorbell? Why aren’t you answering your phone? It’s 3 AM, and I need your answer now!”
Sofie: I’m so bad at that.
Miranda: That’s fine! That’s stuff I can sort out! But when people are coming up going, “I don’t know why audiences, um, aren’t coming to my show.”
Sofie: Oh, God. That’s not…
Miranda: That’s not me! That’s not…That’s…nooo.
Sofie: “Miranda, this punchline doesn’t work!”
Sofie: “Write my show!”
Miranda: “Why aren’t they laughing? Why aren’t they putting any money in the bucket?” Here’s a link of how to do a good bucket speech. I’m not gonna stand there, and go…
Sofie: Just you standing there is a good…I can’t. I’m really sorry I didn’t see your show. Not as in…No, not as in I’m apologizing, but I am sad that I didn’t see your show. Cause it’s the third year in a row that I’ve wanted to see it, and I didn’t. And it was the last Sat…and I planned on doing it on the last Saturday, but you know, the Fringe, and it was the last Saturday. And I was like “I can’t believe I’m missing this again.”
Sofie: I can’t believe it. Again.
Miranda: It’s fine. It is…it was…
Sofie: You’ve done it for 3 years?
Miranda: Yeahhh. But it’s…this year was just a slog
Miranda: This year was the first year…it was such, ummm. I’ve been calling it, like, like, the trousers of destiny.
Miranda: ‘Cause Terry Pratcher has a thing. There’s a writer called Terry Pratcher, and he has this thing called the “Trousers of Time,” where you can go down one route…it, like, there could be this snapshot in your life. And you look at it and you think, “God! If this’d happened. If I’d had crossed the road at that moment, that would’ve happened in my life. Because I stayed on this…” It’s like sliding doors, but that’s a terrible film, so I use “Trousers of Time.” And, so this at Edinburgh was my “Trousers of Destiny!” I was like…so, coin operate girl. I reeeally enjoyed doing it. And It’s done a lot for me, like I’ve done it in like, loads of different places, and Australia was amazing, and but I’ve done what I’ve wanted to do with it, in that I always wanted it to be, go on radio. I wanted it to be an audio thing. And writing, slaving away, was an amazing experience, and performing and doing it. That, to me was that story done.
Sofie: Ok. Yeah. I get that.
Miranda: And what I wanted to do was sorta say to the world, “But I don’t just talk about ______. I can be funny as well! Look at this!” And so I did that with the phone show, which was the one with the telephone number.
Sofie: Yeah. Where you found out that there was no reception in the venue.
Miranda: Yeah! [Laughing]
Sofie: I love that. That’s such an Edinburgh thing, of going “I have everything planned. I have the first. I have the concept. Oh! Uh oh!”
Miranda: Oh! Ohhhhh, noooo!
Sofie: So did you manage to do…so you…I’ve, I’ve…uh, I wanna get back to the sex work, because I’ve heard that this is the only thing that you can talk about…?
Miranda: Yeah! [Laughing]
Sofie: Yeah. Uhh, so we will… [Laughing]…get into that. Uh, so you, the laugh that you had. So you went into a show where you took random phone calls during the show…
Miranda: Yeah! Yeah!
Sofie: And there was no reception. Oh, so funny.
Miranda: It was soooo, like…I just…but it was so seat of the pants, and so Edinburgh, and that was why I was so pleased with myself, because I sort of got this sort of like mass ball of vague ideas, and in the end we hooked it up to the Wi-Fi, so I could call people.
Miranda: And in that… that worked really well, actually, because I could take their messages and I’d record their phone messages. I worked out how to get the phone messages from my phone onto the computer, edit it down, du du duhh. Put it into Skype. I was like “Boom. Boom. Pewm. Pewm. I’m all over this techno nonsense!” Uhh, and then we could call them back in the show, listen to their voicemail if it was funny, call them back in the show, offer our advice, and it was a real lesson in talking to the audience. And in my mind, I was like, “That’s sooo….that’s actually so pertinent to what I’ve been feeling for this past year.” Feeling alone, and not feeling like I can talk to people, and here I am in a room with people, and not only that. I’m talking to them and we’re coming up with little things that we can talk to this stranger on the phone. But not only that, I’ve got all these strangers calling me. They’re quite happy to call me. I’m not alone. I’m not, you know. I don’t have to me a homey. I can put my phone number out there, and I can do something. I can talk to people. And I don’t have to, you now, sit in the corner, like, feeling there’s no one else out there, when actually there’s all these other people out there. And one of the big moments of it was when I was sort of feeling a bit harassed and a bit put down, and I was having this…. It was right in the middle of the festival. I was so tired. I was so, like, I just didn’t know what I was gonna do that night, and I’d had these horrible messages left, and I just burst into tears like 5 minutes into the show. There was not one person in that audience who didn’t come up to me afterwards. There wasn’t one person who didn’t either, like, put some money in my hand, give me a hug, you know, say “That was so brave.” I had, like, there were more people queuing up to give me their stories of how they’d been harassed and how they had felt bullied and uncomfortable, and how they felt vulnerable when they’d put on Facebook they were going somewhere and some asshole had said, “Oh, I’ll see you there, bitch.” So, and like that…It was like, this is like such a full circle thing, like…so it was a real, you know. I felt really good, and everyone after it was like “Oh, are you alright?” And I was like, these, these…it’s just bloody brilliant! Like, what happened was amazing!
Sofie: So would people that were at….like people that you’d put out your phone number, then they would be assholes to you.
Miranda: Yeahhhh. Yeah, saying “Ohhh, I‘m gonna come to your show tonight. I’m gonna. Fuck, you know. You better be fucking brilliant. You’re gonna….you’re.” They commented on what I’d been wearing that day.
Sofie: Oh my God!
Miranda: That was why it was sooo…that was what, the thing that really got me.
Sofie: Ohhhhh. Whoa!
Miranda: Cause they described the dress that I was wearing. And that was before the show. I’d just been wandering around. So they…
Sofie: That is…who does that!?
Miranda: Yeah. Exactly! That’s why…
Sofie: I mean, I know who does, cause I get them too, but you just…you just. Were they left, like voice messages?
Miranda: It was text messages.
Sofie: Yeah. Cause that’s the thing. They wouldn’t leave their voice. That’s the thing. They’re always cowards who wouldn’t even…you know.
Miranda: Yeahh. So it’s just like…it’s just…
Sofie: Oh, my God. I’m sorry that happened.
Miranda: No, no! It’s fine, but it’s given me a real sort of understanding of what, like, what people like you go through when you’re getting trolls.
Sofie: Yeah, yeah yeah.
Miranda: And, you know, all these celebrities. You think, “Oh, poor you! Cry me a river! You’re getting trolled, and you feel a bit bullied.” But it’s like…but actually, you’re gonna be in a public place later, and you’re gonna be vulnerable.
Miranda: And you don’t know who’s waitin.
Sofie: I spoke to a comedian who had a lot of it…and I don’t say who because I’m not sure if it was said in confidence, but…there would be trolls going to their shows, and then afterwards going…putting up like videos they’d taken of the show, and then put it on YouTube and go, “Look at how bad this person…” Like, and that’s really…you know they’ve been in the audience. That is terrifying!
Miranda: That is…that is petrifying.
Sofie: But they’re not in the show. And I like the point of people who ruin the show, they’re…They’re the nice guys…
Sofie: The people who…oh, yeah…that’s… that’s the goodness. The people who relate to it.
Sofie: It is great. It’s great. You’re showing that and talking about it, and.
Miranda: Well, it’s brilliant, and I really want to explore. Like, I’m gonna try and write it up in a big sort of proper post or something, so I’m, I’m working on that at the moment, so. So yeah, it was like…but it’s like for me, like you saying that you wanted to come see Coin Operator Girl…I felt just so, sort of stagnant doing…
Sofie: Yeah, I get that.
Miranda: …that, that show, when…
Sofie: It’s done.
Miranda: …this exciting thing…yessss! Exactly!
Miranda: It was… And I was only doing it, cause I thought that, umm, “Slaving Away” was gonna be, umm, broadcasting, umm, over August. They were like, “Oh yeah! We’re gonna…we’re gonna do a big publicity push!” So I was like, “Oh. Well I’ll do ‘Coin Operator Girl’ again so that I can say ‘Go and listen to this! My magnum opus!” And, they were just like, “Oh no. It’s been pushed back til October.” So…[Long sigh]…oh my God. So, I just have to do the whole slog, and I just felt like I was…I was so trying not to, but I was phoning it in…
Miranda: …every day, and it was just like…
Sofie: You’ve done 3 years in a row.
Sofie: So…because that’s not just you having gotten there 3 years in a row. It was the first time you thought of it was 3 years ago, you know. It’s not…cause the reason why I wanted to see it was…uh, because I feel like knowing you, I feel like I should’ve seen the show in order to know you or to know you…it’s like a bit of you.
Sofie: It’s weird knowing you without ever having seen “The show.”
Miranda: [Laughing] But I quite like that. Like, to me,
Miranda: that’s…that’s really nice, that we’re friends, and like, all the people that I know that haven’t seen the show, like…I like that we have that, that respect where you don’t have to come see my work. We have that respect for each other.
Sofie: Oh, no. I do need you to go and see my work…
Sofie: Just so you know…I mean otherwise…this is…this is over. [Laughs]
Miranda: Bullshit! Bullshit!
Sofie: I have a list, uhhh….
Sofie: …of people who didn’t come to see it.
Miranda: Uhhhhh [laughing] All the YouTube playings…
Sofie: Well, I’m just, I’m just curious, because….uhhh…it’s….I remember seeing before…We didn’t know each other 3 years ago, did we?
Miranda: No. Nooo.
Sofie: Must’ve met you after, but I remember seeing it in Edinburgh…like seeing posters or flyers, or hearing about it. So I kinda knew about the show before I knew you. I just never got around to seeing it. I’m more angry with myself.
Sofie: I’m like, “You should’ve…you wanted to. You should’ve seen it.”
Miranda: But I think, but I think like, I’m gonna do some more stuff, like I haven’t abandoned sex work Miranda Kane at all. Like, there’s so much more that I want to explore. Ummm. But I think now that I’m a bit more experienced and a bit more mature in how I’m gonna go about it…ummm, then I feel a lot more confident with projects that I’m thinking of…at the moment. And, a lot more of what I’m trying to do is about the decriminalization of sex work. So, like, for me, “Coin Operator Girl” was a lovely way of saying “Hey! Look. Look. This is funny. This is fun. All it is is sex. Do you know what guys, just chill out about it. Let’s have a laugh. That it’s cool. Here’s a little bit of a moment where I’m gonna tell you about why it’s shit that it’s not decriminalized, and…you know, so, so strap in. But now we’re back onto why…
Sofie: And now we’re laughing.
Miranda: Yeahh. Exactly. Umm…and that’s the bit that I’m sort of more focused on now, because there’s so many different things that are happening towards decriminalization of sex work, rather than just like, “Let’s talk about face sitting! Ayyyyy!” You know, which I still will do, but…[Laughs]
Sofie: Can I ask a stupid question?
Miranda: Go for it!
Sofie: I…don’t know what the law is, in, the UK.
Miranda: OK. So the law at the moment is, that, it is currently illegal for….it’s currently legal to be a sex worker if you’re working by yourself.
Miranda: So you can do it in your own flat. I can do it…
Miranda: Yeah, I know. Right!? But if you want to work with someone else, then it becomes illegal.
Sofie: So like a brothel.
Miranda: Or, if you just want to work as a cooperative.
Sofie: Yes. Safety.
Miranda: As out of safety. So say if we wanted to hire our own flat, work out of there out of safety, ummmm, and say if we wanted to get….or say if I wanted to get a maid. So I wanted someone to take the phone calls, or someone to sort of, you know, clean up…then…then I can’t because…I can’t have anyone working with me, because it becomes a brothel. But what a brothel is technically known as…a brothel, if you look under one of the regulations for what they class as a brothel, it’s two women working under one roof whether money has exchanged hands or not.
Sofie: Uh oh.
Sofie: We have to make some changes….
Sofie: Really? That’s ridiculous.
Miranda: Welcome to the British law. Welcome to the law of brothels.
Sofie: I guess I asked.
Miranda: It’s…it’s…it’s exactly…It’s totally ridiculous. So, it makes it totally unsafe for workers, for sex workers, um, to work alone.
Sofie: That seems like it’s uh…that seems to be….it feels like a law made to make women unsafe.
Sofie: Cause it’s not like…so men can just walk in and do whatever, basically.
Miranda: Yeah. Yeah.
Sofie: So it’s not illegal to go and see a sex worker…
Miranda: Uhh…it’s not illegal to buy sex, no. That’s the Swedish model, which is what they’ve got currently in Northern Ireland and Sweden. Umm, so what we’re…so it’s alllll these different…the whole world is filled with all these different models of prohibition…apart from New Zealand, which is where sex workers can work together.
Miranda: Umm. And something that is really interesting is I was talking to a friend….Sorry.
Sofie: No. Go on!
Miranda: I’m gonna blind you with just words and horror. Sorry.
Sofie: It’s fine. I’m ok with words. I know a few of them.
Miranda: You know them!!
Miranda: Ummm…So …it’s really interesting because when I talk to people about where places where sex work is decriminalized, a lot of them go “Oh yeah! Amsterdam! You know, but that’s a bit sleazy.” And I’m like, but, cause it’s not decriminalized in Amsterdam.
Miranda: So all these women that are working in the windows. That’s technically one flat, so they still can’t work together.
Miranda: So they…And they have to sort of do that…you know…because it’s the red light district, la la la. Umm…however, that also brings in a shit ton of money into Amsterdam. You know, so, well done sex workers! You’re fucking bringing up the economy. You know! Umm…
Sofie: Despite your own lack of safety.
Miranda: Despite your own lack of safety. And despite the government not…
Miranda: …helping you. Or giving you any kind of, you know, like, whether you want to say exit strategies or any kind of, you know. They’re probably absolutely fine working. But it would just be nicer to know that, you know, if people saw it as sleazy that they didn’t have that stigma. Do you know what I mean?
Miranda: Cause that’s what everyone, that’s what the problem is. It’s the stigma of being a sex worker.
Miranda: That’s what kills. Cause they think, “Oh these women are working by themselves. I can do whatever I want.” You know. And it’s like, well no because it’s illegal to beat someone up, you fuck.
Miranda: So, umm, so the…yeah, so the…we…but in reality when I say that New Zealand is the model that we want to recreate, everyone always turns around and goes, “Oh! Well…they don’t have like some sort of huge sex problem.” And we’re like, “Noooooo.”
Sofie: Ding! Ding! Ding!
Miranda: Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Look at that!
Sofie: But there’s…so…the other side of this argument, and I don’t…it’s one of these things…I…one of these feminist issues where people are very pro or con.
Miranda: Verrry pro or con.
Sofie: It gets very heated, the discussions.
Sofie: And the con, from what I understand… [Sigh] Oh, God! It is….you know this better than me…they…so the other part of it. They want to criminalize all of it, right?
Miranda: Yes. So they want…
Sofie: For it to be non-existent.
Miranda: ….the buying of sex illegal.
Sofie: Yeah. Ok. So they don’t want to make it illegal to be…
Miranda: No, because they’re all like, “Oh, but we’ll protect the women! They’ll be fine!” No they fucking won’t! If you look at Sweden and you look at what it’s done to Sweden. The sex work is still there. The sex workers are now out on the street because they’ve been evicted, because people know that the police are going to be looking where they’re working.
Miranda: And if someone comes up, then they arrest that person. And very often, they don’t arrest that person. They arrest that person that they bring that woman in for questioning, and if that woman does end up getting arrested, then she has then got a criminal prosecution against her. Boom boom boom! She is now trapped working as a sex worker forever because she’s got a criminal record of being a prostitute.
Sofie: I mean, as a Danish person, I’m very happy to hear of the faults of Sweden. This makes me very happy. Big brother made a mistake! HA! HA! HA!
Miranda: Good! I’m very happy to tell them all about it. I have not finished. There is an absolute wonderful, brilliant doctor. Umm, this guy did his doctorate on the sex workers of Sweden. He stayed out there for 3 years. His name is Dr. Jay Levi, and he looks like Johnny Depp and talks like a god.
Sofie: Sounds like Johnny Depp, like John Levi.
Miranda: Ohhh. I know! I just wanna gobble him all up! And, uh, and he did this presentation at this sex worker conference…..cause we have those. We all get together, and….
Sofie: Are you allowed to do that?
Sofie: Do you have to arrive in separate little coffins and not speak?
Miranda: We just can’t…we just can’t have sex. [Laughs] We can have a coffee.
Sofie: What a boring conference.
Miranda: Yeah, and just wearing a massive condom on us. [Chuckles] But he was just saying how these women are working on the street, but then they’re….because the sex work has been pushed underground, so now they’re more susceptible to things like pimps and sex trafficking and umm…people taking advantage of them, the police taking advantage of them.
Miranda: There are so many reports of where the police are like “We know what you’re doing, so now you have to give us sexual favors or you have to give us money.”
Sofie: Ugh. Sweden.
Sofie: We always knew it was there. Underneath.
Miranda: We always knew!
Sofie: Underneath that…shiny, shiny surface.
Miranda: [laughing] Your shiny, blonde haired, blue eyed surface. And there’s this other thing where, because there’s no sex worker outreach, they can’t have…so here, we’ll have, umm, we have, uhh, the doctors, and G-U-M clinics, and if you say you’re a sex worker, they’re fine. You get to see your own medical, you’re gonna get seen practitioner, and she’ll give you loads of free condoms, loads of free ummm lubricant. She’ll give you her number. She’s always like, “If you need anything, let me know. Let’s make sure your Hep’s…your Hep injections are up to date. Let’s do this. Du du du. Du du duhh.” And they’re absolutely lovely. There is no…well, the ones that I’ve visited, at least. There’s been no stigma, no anything. They’ve been absolutely…all they wanna do is just make sure you’re safe and you’re alright, love. And that’s lovely. But in Sweden because there’s no sex worker outreach. So the women, I think…it’s like at the top of Sweden is where there’s the only sex worker outreach project. But the red light district is on the other side of town…and….is it? Which one is the capital city of Sweden?
Miranda: Stockholm! Let’s say Stockholm.
Miranda: Umm…I told you that….
Sofie: No one cares, Sweden!
Miranda: …I’m really intelligent.
Sofie: No one cares.
Miranda: [laughing] No one cares. Fuck it. So, like 3 miles away is basically. The women have to go from the red light district, walk 3 miles up to the sex work…cause they’re poor. They’re poor! They’re dirt fucking poor! They walk up to the sex worker outreach, and then they have to walk 3 miles back, just to get free condoms, because all of the shops in the sex worker area in the red light districts have said that they can’t even enter the shops. They can’t go in there and buy condoms because they used to have to steal them. So now they can’t buy condoms. They can’t get hold of any free condoms. The guys who are coming up in their cars are literally like drive-bys, like get in, get out, go! Because they know police are gonna be watching, so they can’t haggle. They can’t negotiate. They can’t say “I’m not gonna do this. I’m not gonna do that.” So Sweden, are basically…like, in effect…and this…and Dr. Jay Levi he’s just like, basically they’re just sitting on a HIV time bomb, because the sex workers can’t get to any of the protection that they need. And that’s just, you know…so it’s like, if you don’t want to look at the sex workers and you think, “Ohhhh, you know. Boohoo to them.” But if you wanna start looking at your general population. Guys are still visiting them, ok?
Sofie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Miranda: And some of them are gonna be absolute twats.
Sofie: And there’s very little focus on that, I feel.
Sofie: Rarely talk about that aspect of it. Or, I guess, unless you go to the opposite. Like the people wanting all of it to be criminalized. Cause I guess, I imagine what people are afraid of is that if they say, “Oh, it’s all legal now,” that’s like saying it’s ok.
Miranda: Oh, they go into moral panic!
Miranda: That’s all it is. It’s a moral thing. Um.
Sofie: What about the feminism part of it? Where…I guess they say….then you would say it’s ok to buy a woman’s body. Is that the…
Miranda: Yeah. The whole thing is…
Sofie: There are like 3 angry feminists listening going, “You’re phrasing it wrong!”
Miranda: [Laughing] That’s fine. I’m absolute dine. People have got their different opinions on it. For me, it’s just this mental block, and I wish I could put it more eloquently, and I wish I could write papers on it, and I wish I could write a book on it, but I can’t because I just have this mental block. I’m like, how is it ok to give men sexual favors for free, but not ok to charge them for it? Like, when they fuck you around and they give you all this lip service, like, “Oh yeah! I’d love to take you out on a date! Do you wanna come round to my place and I‘ll cook you dinner?” And they’re immediately trying to buff one out on your tits, and you just think “I could be getting paid for this.”
Miranda: Do you know what I mean? Or it’s like, “Oh yeah, I’d love it if you could tie me up and put a collar on me and lead me around like a dog.” I’m like…I just…I just wanted a kiss and a cuddle, but…
Sofie: Do you always go on, when you go on dates and you’ll go home and be like…loss of money I made, like I could have made….[Laughing]
Miranda: OH! Yes!!!
Sofie: You just cost me £500, mister!
Miranda: I just…I do!! I think about that! I think about it all the time, because in a way, and whether you think of it as a good or a bad thing…in a way, I’ve now got, ummm….well, no! It’s good that I’ve got more respect for myself, ya know, but whether I’ve, ya know, I’ve sort of put that into a monetary context…which I know loads of people are gonna go “Oh my God! Ok, so let’s get the psychopath book out.”
Miranda: But it’s like, but that’s a way that I can equate it. I’m like, well yeah! You should be nice to me, and we should go out for a drink.
Sofie: Well, I got that with stand-up…
Sofie: In a lot ways, the same thing. But I got that with stand-up. I got that…as soon as you know, oh this is what I now get paid to do a gig.
Miranda: Yeah! Yeah.
Sofie: You know, you feel, you know…someone says “Oh, do this gig for £5.” You go….
Sofie: No. I know that my price is this, and I can’t…
Miranda: It’s exactly the same. Sex work was like my school of study for comedy. There are so many things that it’s got in common with each other. Because, in comedy and in sex, not necessarily sex work…but you know, if someone just sort of just meets you on Tinder, and it’s just like…you know, the open mic scene is the Tinder, isn’t it? It’s…it’s…
Miranda: It’s just a hookup. It’s just a quick 5 minutes! You’re gonna entertain me, and we’re gonna be done with it. And then on the other side of it, you’ve got the sex work. You’ve got…Yeah, you’re gonna pay me £300 to lick my feet for a couple of hours. Do you know what I mean? You’ve got the….yeah you’re gonna pay me like £15 a ticket because you’re gonna get an hour of quality standup. Do you know what I mean? It’s that, giving yourself that value I think works with a lot of things in life. And I’m…and I would say that it works with sex and how you feel about yourself, and giving yourself a bit of confidence, and saying “No. I am worth more than just a quick bunk up for the night.” But then also, you have your new material nights, so maybe, you are…
Sofie: Yeah, and some of the gigs are so much fun!
Sofie: And so there are some charity gigs where you feel really good.
Miranda: [Laughing] When you feel like you just have to because, you know…
Sofie: You know what? This made me feel better.
Sofie: I didn’t cum, but I am such a good person.
Sofie: No, but I…umm…Oh, what was I gonna say? Uhh.
Miranda: That wasn’t…What was…?
Sofie: It’s a drill. They’re drilling next door and it sounds…very much, as in a basement, well….
Sofie: You know that better than me…
Miranda: Fair enough…
Sofie: I don’t wanna be an expert on you…but I do think it’s really….I…from stand-up I learned as well to get that respect…like it’s a self-respect thing, and I don’t think it necessarily just because for you it was sex work…it’s just when someone values you and tells you, oh this part of you, this thing you can do….you take that with you, and if you could….like some of the….just the texting, some of the flirting with men…or women…or anyone else. With a person. Just for the time you spend on someone, where you go…time. You forget to value, just, your time!
Miranda: Yeah! It’s expensing….self!
Sofie: That you could be spending on yourself…
Sofie: Ohh, self if so good!
Miranda: Oh my god! It’s like this little bath of self that you just want to put little bubbles of self in, with a little self bath bomb.
Sofie: You should want that, at least. You shouldn’t be standing, like next to the tub of self and… [Laughs]
Sofie: I mean like, oh no. I just have to text him back, because maybe one day he’ll love me back. I mean, it’s been 5 years. At some point he should wanna…ya know….I’m so done with it.
Miranda: Ohhhh! Nooo!
Sofie: So how do you…I imagine people will have loads of questions…like people would want you to answer all of the basic questions. You must have like a list of 10, the 10 the most normal questions that people ask you.
Miranda: Yeah. They ask, umm….there’s a really interesting, umm, thing online that I saw which was like the top questions not to ask a sex worker. And it’s brilliant, because…and it’s all those that I I’m just like, I learn to deflect. So I do a Q&A in the show, and I deflect them, because I’m just like…
Sofie: Oh yeah?
Miranda: Yeah. Because it makes feel….so a lot of them will be like “How much did you earn? How much did you charge?”
Miranda: Uhhh, what, uhh…like, yeah, “How much did you earn? How much did you charge?” So it’s all the money stuff. And I’m British, so I’m just like….just don’t! “How many people did you see in a day?” As if it was like some sort of revolving door system, and I’m like, if I answer those questions. If I answer too few…you’ll have a set figure in your mind, and if I answer below that, you’ll think there’s something wrong with me. And if I answer more than that, then you think that I’ve got like….
Sofie: I wouldn’t pay that!
Miranda: Yeah! Exactly! Go, wooo! Wooo! Then you think I’m…I don’t know…earning too much, or you think that I’ve got a pussy the size of the black hole of Calcutta or something. Do you know what I mean?
Sofie: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Miranda: People start thinking, “Oh, you must be riddled!” And it’s like…
Sofie: Oh, wow!
Miranda: …actually I am way more safer…I can promise you that I am way more safer than anyone else in the room, apart from if anyone else in the room is another sex worker. Do you know what I mean?
Miranda: It’s just…It’s just so stupid where people have that sort of value on things.
Sofie: Yeah. I get that.
Miranda: And unfortunately they do go into the top 10, but it’s….what people ask, but people always ask…and those are very…and there’s sort of a lot of things on there that ummm…sex workers….who aren’t necessarily comedians, don’t like being asked, but if you’re a comedian, then yeah, I’ll go into what’s the funniest appointment? What’s the weirdest request? You know? Was there a guy that you didn’t fancy? Was there a guy that you did fancy? And then the #1! Bing bing bing! Was did you ever manage to have a relationship?
Sofie: Ohhhh. But did you?
Miranda: Yeah!! And it’s like….no but did you!? [Laughing]
Sofie: Would anyone ever want to…?
Miranda: Why would they want this, man?
Sofie: Can I…I have a question. Uhhh…Did you ever….Did you go to a website and test and stuff?
Sofie: Oh ok. In my head I had this nice fantasy where, like you open the door and it was someone you knew, and it would be like “Oh my god!”
Miranda: Oh no!
Sofie: “Dr. Blah blah! Or my old teacher, Mr. Duh!”
Miranda: Mr. Duh! Well, no Mr. Duh, Dr. Blah blah.
Sofie: Well, that’s such a shame. That would have been such a good story.
Miranda: No, no, no! I did have…
Sofie: “Dad!” I’m sorry.
Sofie: I had to say it. I’m sorry.
Miranda: Oh, Jesus!
Sofie: I had to say it. It came out.
Miranda: Oh, God!
Sofie: I used to have this weird fantasy that I, where…if I went home with a guy, and I would come downstairs in the morning and his parents would be like someone I knew. It would be like, like a teacher or something…cause I…
Miranda: That is a weird fantasy.
Sofie: This is how I…No, this is how much of an idiot I am…cause I would just love to have that bond with a teacher.
Sofie: So that like at school I could be like, “Oh, I’ve seen his house.”
Miranda: I love how your fantasy isn’t just to fuck the teacher! Like, everyone else’s…
Sofie: Oh, no!
Miranda: …is just like, “Oh no, I wanna fuck his son.”
Sofie: I just want to be his friend.
Miranda: [Laughing] Be his friend?
Sofie: [Laughing] I just want to be the teacher’s friend!
Miranda: “I’m so needy! And I so want acceptance from people that I respect that I will fuck your son to be your mate.”
Sofie: I will fuck your daughters and sons. I will do the….just love me.
Miranda: [Laughing] Brilliant!
Sofie: So you use stock….do you…uhhh….in your stock responses, I guess, when you have the weirdest or the funniest…do you ever. Do you ever just….you know when you tell a story on stage, and then at the end of it, you kinda forget how much of that was real? Or it doesn’t feel real anymore. It feels just like a story…
Miranda: Yeah. Yeahh.
Sofie: Do you have clients or experiences with clients….Do you call them clients?
Sofie: Yeah. Alright. I was about to say patients.
Miranda: [Laughing] Cause I have to be!
Sofie: Your clients, where you think “Oh, I’ve never told that story!” And maybe you want to keep it to yourself, or maybe you just haven’t ever…or are you like saving it, or?
Miranda: It’s a weird thing, because all of these memories are gonna be useful.
Miranda: And they’re all something that I want to do something with, like especially with like Slaving Away…if that gets another series. Then I’m like, “Aww, yeah.” Ya know. To me, it’s like, I’ve always said. I’ve said to Nick, who is the producer. I was like…He was…When we were thinking about the pilot, he was like, “Yeah, What if we like do 3 weirdest requests!? Let’s put those in.” And I’m like “No, because what’s weird to me is gonna be, ya know, might be fairly average to you.” And instead, I’m like let’s narrow it down to think about all these memories and all these guys. So I have like this room of like…I have a wall of post-it notes with just like “the man who…,” “the man who…” like Friends…
Miranda: Like the episode where…
Sofie: Do you take that down if you take a date home with you?
Sofie: Like, “So, uhh, I’m gonna show you, uhhh, my past, and…”
Miranda: Like “Well this makes it easier!”
Sofie: “Pick a post-it note…”
Miranda: I’m like “Yeah, sooo, ummm. So yeah, this is just my wall for my sitcom. You may go down on me now.”
Sofie: “These are all the men I’ve fucked. Carry on” [laughing]
Miranda: Yeah! [Laughing] And I’m just like…I’m like fucking why not!? I’ve always had the belief that we’re so looked upon like, even when I was younger I couldn’t believe that men get away with fucking women so much and we…we’re like, supposed to be like…[singing: One man, one love!]
Miranda: Like Nooooo!
Sofie: …Broke out Blue song.
Sofie: [Singing: One man! Duh, duh, duh. One love! Never date again! Duh duh! You’ve ruined me for everyone!]
Miranda: Yeah! Like fuck that shit!! I’m just like…look at my wall, you know. Like…and it’s not even…and when guys go “Ooo, so who’ve you….like how many’ve you slept with?” I’m like, “Right. Can we just denote what sleeping with someone is? Have I put several butt plugs up someone else’s ass? Yes! Have I made someone crawl around on the floor wearing a…Yes! Have I…?” Do you know what I mean? And it’s like…
Sofie: So, yes. I’ve made love with them all.
Miranda: Yes! None…hardly any….but they’re like “But the penetration part…” It’s like…I am allowed to fuck.
Sofie: Ohhh yeahhh…oh you know all those virgin lesbians who’ve never…never had sex…..penis and vagina.
Miranda: [Laughing] Exactly!
Sofie: Oh, that’s such a weird…it’s a weird fasci….it’s a weird obsession, with the number.
Miranda: It’s a weird obsession with the numbers, so they’ll either go for the numbers, uhhhh…and I’m like…when people are like…so what are….I’m like, well, think of it as a ball pool. So when people say “Well, have you had any weird requests with a, ummm, someone who’s religious?” Then I’m like, that’s a pink ball, so I can bring out all the pink balls. Or if someone says “Have you had a weird request with someone who was old?” And I’m like, those are the….blue balls…
Miranda: Oh, fuck. You know, so it’s like narrowing down the, the things, ummm, but the, the thing that people are obsessed with other than number, ummm, is…I just had it…the orgasms. The orgasms.
Miranda: And, it’s just like, yeah!
Miranda: I know. They’re just sort of sat in the audience. I did a show in Manchester, and this guy was like “I’m really interested in the, uhhh, in the sort of, uhh, the way, uhh, that it’s still not decriminalized, and I’d really like to know a bit more about that, but also, did you cum?”
Miranda: I’m like… [Laughing]
Miranda: You know…You know that’s not ok to ask, but I’m a comedian, and I’m sorta of the rule of thumb that, fuck it, let’s make anything funny if I could…so I sort of take more of the piss out of them, and go “Hmm, hmm, hmm. Did you cum?” The little, leg rubbers. And it’s like, why wouldn’t you? You know? I think of those people on a diet eating a steak and spitting it out, and it’s just like “Why?” Wouldn’t you just go “Mmmmm, this is good, man!”
Sofie: Oh, God!
Miranda: People get obsessed by the weirdest of things!
Sofie: What about when you do your shows? So they…uhh…Does anyone ask about the fat stuff? Like when you do your show, do you mention? I guess you mention that as a thing?
Miranda: Yeah. And I mean it’s pretty obvious that I’m…I am…
Sofie: Oh yeah! I don’t mean that “Have you told them you’re fat?”
Miranda: [laughing] Just in case.
Sofie: But do they have questions about that?
Miranda: They don’t, cause I think I sort of answer it within the narrative of the show, because I go into sort of how I was…I was always looked at as being ummm…different, and how everyone…like when I grew up, I was always told “Oh, you’ve got such a pretty face!” “You’ve got such a good personality.”
Miranda: Do you know what I mean?
Miranda: It was always like…
Sofie: You’ve got pretty eyes.
Miranda: Pretty Eyes!!! Wouldn’t it be….you know if you could just…just…lose
Sofie: You’d be sooo.
Miranda: So pretty!
Sofie: You could be so overall pretty!
Miranda: And it was that sort of thing, I was never seen as a sexual object. Never seen as anything that anyone would desire. There was no…it was just, sort of common fact that I would grow up alone, you know. Like, and I would die before I was 30. There were 3 things that I knew when I was 7. I was gonna die before I was 30. I was gonna grow up and never get married and no one would love me. And that my parents didn’t love me. Those were everything everyone told me. Your parents can’t love you…they’re just feeding….look at you. They can’t love you.
Sofie: You must be miserable.
Miranda: You must be miserable. So I, ummm…So I just never thought about being a sexual object, and then sort of, the internet came along. Ahhh daaa!! And I found, like, there’s this big connotation now of what the term BBW means.
Miranda: And a friend of mine called Naomi Griffith, she wrote a brilliant blog post about it. She was like, “I know what you think about it now, because it’s all associated with pornographic terms. It’s been overtaken by the porn industries…but back in the day when you were a 16, 17 year old girl, and you were the fattest person in your town, and you thought no one was ever gone love you, no one saw you as being sexy. When you saw BBW on the internet, and you were like “What is this? Big beautiful woman? What does that mean?” And you saw people being sexy, and you saw that you could also be sexy, and men would like you, and women would like you. And people would like your body! And that’s…that’s like such a sort of….cause you’ve already got a pretty face, and a good personality, and nice heart, so all you really need is that bit of where people to like your body! So you’re like, “Oh, my G…” And it has been taken over now…We have, ummm, we have loads of different ways of saying it, like body positivity…and we have things like fat admiration. We have…umm…lots of very lovely ways of saying it, but I, especially for Indulge Club, I still use the term BBW.
Sofie: Explain Indulge Club.
Miranda: uhh, it’s Club Indulge.
Sofie: Cause that’s another great thing you’re doing.
Miranda: Thank you! It’s, It’s, we’re so proud of it…
Sofie: I mean, I haven’t been, cause I hate going out, but I feel like I should…
Miranda: No. [Laughing] That’s fine!
Sofie: Another thing I feel like I should do.
Miranda: Don’t worry about it! It is a proper going out thing, so it’s absolutely fine.
Sofie: A club for fat people!
Sofie: A night club for fat people.
Miranda: It’s a night club for fat people! And it’s a night club for people who feel a bit self-conscious when they go out on normal club nights. And it’s just a club night where you can come in. You can wear whatever you want. We have fancy dress nights. We do karaoke. You can wear something sexy. If you think “I’d never be able to get away with that in Reflex,” or ya know, or in one of these little shitty clubs, ya know. Then you can get away with it here. It’s absolutely fine! Go! Be sexy! Have a fun night out without thinking someone’s whispering about you, or someone’s looking at you, or someone’s laughing about you, or someone’s playing that fucking horrific pull a pig game, or anything like that. This is a safe environment, and you can have a good night out, you know. You might pull, and that’s fine as well! And so I use, like, things like, BBW, plus size, body positivity…as many different terms as I can use, but I always feel like I’m pissing someone off. There’s gonna be someone in a, you know, in a body positivity group who’s like, “Well, I can’t believe she’s using the term BBW. Doesn’t she know what that means?” Yeah, I do! But I know what that meant to me 10 years ago when it was a big eye-opener, and it was a big, sort of, touchstone for me, and it was how I got my confidence, because body positivity and fat-tion and plus-sized bloggers weren’t around when I was 16. Instead, that was all I had, and that was how I got to meet some of my best friends in the plus-sized scene, who’ve really inspired me and helped me do Club Indulge. Do you know what I mean?
Miranda: So, It’s that kind of “I know you think this word means that to you, but it means this to me!”
Sofie: Yeah. It’s something more.
Miranda: Yeah! Exactly! So that was what I, you know…finding BBW on the internet was when I was like, Fuck, I can…I can be sexy. And then I just…just went…mental!! [Laughing] I was just like, “SEX! This is brilliant!” [Laughing]
Sofie: [laughing] I really hope you answered your first appointment like that!
Miranda: Yeah! [Laughing]
Sofie: Kicking down the door. I gotta have this! It’s like fucking hell!
Miranda: Like the Hulk! [Laughing]
Sofie: Like “I’m gonna tip this one!”
Miranda: He’d a prolly paid twice as much if I did. Shit!
Sofie: You started at…what age were you when you started?
Miranda: I was 23.
Miranda: Yeah. Yeah. So, uhh, before that I’d had like a, a massive long-term relationship, but I’d sort of started like 6 months after id moved to London. So I split up with my then fiancée, moved to London. “New start! Yaay!” And then, “I’m gonna do comedy and be an actress, and no one wants me! Oh God!” And then it was just like, finding these dating sites, and then going on to meet with load of guys, and sort of feeling…feeling…that was when I felt used. That was when I felt like “I am an object of the patriarchy.” That was when I felt really shit about myself, going out with these guys, and they’d never contact me, and I couldn’t understand why. Because, the last guy that I went out on a date with, I ended up nearly marrying. So going out on dates with guys who would just like, after my body, cause I was on these BBW dating sites, was a real new world, and then I was like “If I’m fucking doing this for free, I might as well get paid.” And then I found out that I could….so I was….alright! [Laughs]
Sofie: Do you think it stems a bit from…uhhh…your…like…businessy personality. Like your leader….like we were talking in the beginning how you got that, from your dad, of being really good business, like it seems very you that you would do something like that and think, “I could make money off of this.”
Miranda: Yeah! [Laughing]
Sofie: I could become my…I could become a business! I’m not dependent on anyone. I don’t have to follow anyone’s progress.
Miranda: I’ve never equated it to being Del Boy Trotter before, but yes! Yes!!
Sofie: I see that being you, going fuck it!
Miranda: Fuck this shit! That was exactly my thought process! Fuck this shit! Why am I doing this for free, when like….and just….the way guys would treat you as well, was like they saw me as this luxury object, and it was their time to have some fun, and so they would be this…this lovely…for that hour, they would be like…they would treat you so much better than I would ever be treated on dates. And it would be like, “Oh! I’m so pleased you made it! Come in. I wanna do this.” I know exactly what we were doing beforehand. And if I didn’t like it I could say no. You know, try someone else. So I knew what we were gonna be doing beforehand. They were always like, you know, it’s their luxury to them. Do you know what I mean? Like if you go to umm… like say, I don’t know, Alton Towers…for the day. No, Ok. Somewhere not…that makes you doesn’t look like you’re gonna throw up. Ok, so, say you buy yourself a bath bomb, ok. And it’s passion fruit and…..candy floss flavor. Don’t you think, “Do you know what? I’m gonna drop this bath bomb and I’m gonna really enjoy it. I’m gonna get my book out.”
Sofie: Yeah. It’s like a night at a hotel.
Sofie: Like, ohhh, I’m gonna get room service, and I’m gonna do the whole thing.
Miranda: Yeah. You don’t go, “Well, fuck this room! This isn’t my room. This isn’t my room at home!” You know? You start off thinking “I’m gonna really to enjoy this.” And they were so fun and care-free, because like, we knew we weren’t gonna see each other in the morning. There was no pressure. There’s that contract in place to go, “We’re never…Well, I’m not fast. You don’t call me. You’re not fast. I don’t call you.” There’s no pressure to impress each other. You know. Now I don’t have to worry about my wobbly bits, because you know about my wobbly bits. And you like me because of my wobbly bits, and you know, that’s what you’re paying for really. And, just that, that sort of no pressure, and like…it was…it was, so nice. That little bubble, and not a lot of people talk about it because a lot of people, like…people are always like, “Oh, sex work! It’s good for the money. I felt empowered! Du duh duh.” And people don’t say “I felt, I felt turned on. I felt like I was being treated! I felt like I was having some of the greatest sex that I’ve ever had!” Do you know what I mean? Because we’re all sort of so, like….activism and, duh duh duh. And I’m like, “Well, let’s be a little bit clowny about it. Let’s get a little bit, you know.” It’s fine.
Sofie: I’m gonna. I’m gonna. We don’t have a lot of time left.
Sofie: No. Why? You’re so British. You’re sorry for time passing? [Laughing]
Miranda: I’m so sorry for the natural passing of time!
Sofie: No, I was just gonna say that, because we don’t have a lot of time, I’m gonna try and not feel bad about asking stupid questions. So I’m just gonna ask the stupid questions.
Miranda: Go for it!
Sofie: And you can do your deflector stuff and be like “Idiot!” and storm out.
Sofie: So were the guys…I mean, this is such an obvious “No” question, but when you see ….buyers of sex work on TV and stuff, they’re always portrayed in the same way. Were they….did they all have something in common where you could go “Oh they are kinda the same type of guy” or were they completely…
Miranda: No. They were all just, every different guy, every different color, every different race, every different nationality, every different age…just. There was nothing…the only thing that they had in common was they just…they were either. Well, that’s not even having something in common. You can’t start with “What they had in common was they were either…”
Miranda: They just wanted…they just wanted a bit of fun, or some intimacy or, they just…they just wanted to feel that for an hour. They wanted to try something new. They’d say “I’ve had a fantasy of, you know, having, like, fucking a plus-size woman for ages.” You know? Or they’d have that sad story of “Oh, I’ve always fancied being with girls, but I was always afraid my mates took the piss out of me.” And I’m there making it rain like, “Yep. Your sob story is my rent, so go fuck yourself!” Yeah? I don’t care. You were ashamed to tell your mates? Go fuck yourself! And I will take your money happily. [Laughs]
Sofie: Well, now…we now know your hourly price was £2,000 since you lived in London at the time, so we know exactly what you needed to pay the rent.
Miranda: Yeah, exactly. And that’s when I did have to have the revolving door system. My fanny is knackered. I’m literally…I can’t even sit down right now.
Sofie: Well, how long ago was it that you stopped? Cause you’re not doing it anymore.
Miranda: No. No. I stopped when I was 30. I stopped 5 years ago.
Sofie: All the emotional damage that I can hear
Miranda: [sarcastically] The emotional damage, like…
Sofie: Yeah. I can hear how you’re so fucked up.
Miranda: Ummm…cuz things in any industry change, and there was more people…like when I first started, there was only about 12 plus-sized women in London.
Sofie: Wow! Whoa!
Miranda: If not the UK. I can’t remember. There were very….there was, like, a few of us, so we were, in demand. And then I think the last time I looked when like things were just getting slower and slower and slower, and then it was just like, you look at all these horrific sites and they’re getting downhill. There used to be really nice sites…like, this is blatantly, a lady you want to spend a night with. And now it’s like, “Yeah, I’ll fuck you for a pound a minute! Bleh bleh bleh bleh!” And it’s just gone so downhill. You look at these horrific sites and how ladies advertise themselves, and I’m just like I don’t want to be part of that. And there was something like 3,000 plus-sized women doing it, so I was sort of in a bit of a flooded market, and I didn’t like how sort of they were thinking that they needed to look at themselves. Do you know what I mean? You’d always get the guys that would be like “Oh, well why are you charging that when this other girl is charging this?” Because that’s my price. “Yeah, but she’s charging that.” Well, then go and see her.
Sofie: Like, inflation in it.
Miranda: Go and see her then. “But I wanna see you, and you should be charging that!” But I couldn’t get to go to Tesco and say ask them to charge 50p for their oranges. Can I have your £2 oranges… Do you know what I mean?
Miranda: Like, that is my…that is my price. And I just saw the haggling, so. It was…it was the way the industry was going, but it was also that sort of that moment of like “I’m 30, and I moved to London because I wanted to do comedy and because I wanted to do more performance. Ad I’ve got these wonderful stories that I wanna tell. I’ve got a reason to tell them, because I was seeing sort of like, you what was happening in Sweden. And, I was like, I’ve got a reason…
Sofie: Fuck Sweden! I mean…
Miranda: Fuck them!
Sofie: I don’t think I’ve mentioned that enough.
Miranda: [laughing] No, we’ll never like them.
Sofie: Oh, Denmark. Fuck those guys.
Miranda: Denmark. I think Denmark’s alright. I’ll have to check.
Sofie: I’m not really…uhh…I’m not really sure. I was….cause I worked in the sex shop when I was 17….well, no I was 16 but I told them I was 18.
Sofie: They never check. They knew. Uh…so, and I met a lot...I met a woman who was a professional…is it Japanese bondage?
Miranda: Oh, Yes.
Sofie: Which is almost performance art. It’s not even sexual, even. It’s almost art. How to make knots…it’s like Boy Scout….Girl Scout art. And umm, so it kinda went…it was a bit…just knew a lot of people who were into that sort of thing. I was very curious about it, so I was very passive...umm… involved in like the forums and…the internet and stuff…and umm….and so I, I…there was one Danish sex worker who was always on the news talking about it, and I saw…and I knew her a bit. I didn’t really….I don’t know how I lost contact with that whole thing, but she…I heard the things that people said about her. And it’s always this very difficult thing of, people are diluted if they’re pro, like no matter what people say…which is my struggle, like when I talk about fat positivity, my struggle is always people going…my thought is well, they’re gonna think “Of course you would say that fat is beautiful, cause you’re fat.” You know, so it would be in your preference of things. You know?
Sofie: And that…I can imagine that must be the most….the most damaging…the most horrible thing to hear is someone saying, “Well you don’t know what you think about your own situation.”
Miranda: Yeahh. Yeah! But that’s like, all of us, isn’t it. That’s like, feminism, and….we’re trying to talk about different people of different colors…and it’s that sort of…
Sofie: But it’s so deep within your psyche. It’s so deep within going “Oh no, you’re damaged!” and you can go, “No, no!”
Miranda: Yeah. “I’m fine! I’m fine!” “You’re damaged! You’ve got daddy issues. You’re….you’ve got…you’re riddled….you know, you could never love. You must never’ve had a relationship whilst you were working!” And it’s like, you….do you wanna like just go out…just for a bit? Take a walk. Get off your computer and just come and talk to a person. Do you know what I mean? And It’s….its sooo…it is annoying, but it’s like, but that’s what I think…that was when I thought, I can lend my voice to that. I’ve got the balls, and I’ve got the...like, assertion to say…to stand up and say, “This is what a sex worker looks like. We’re not gonna be roaming around in heels and leopard print. You know? That we are a normal.” That was one of the reasons why I wanted to do the show, like sort of, way back when. Just sort of put it on an application form. Like, errr. So I wanna show that we’re normal…You don’t know what a sex worker looks like. You don’t know who a sex worker is in this room. You don’t….you think you’ve got this idea that we…that we’re this, we’re that. And it’s like we’re…we’re so not. All we did was find something that we enjoy, and we wanted to get paid for it. That’s…that’s a job. You know?
Miranda: So it’s….it’s…so yeah... that’s sort of one of the reasons why I was like, “Yeah, I will do it.” And one of the things why I’m like…I will keep banging my drum. [Laughs] Cause I’m passionate…
Sofie: But for a price! [Laughs]
Miranda: …about it. For a price!! Ummmm, it’s…it’s just sort of trying to…I find my position is more to say to normal…to people who don’t know about sex work and about the law…I’m like, “Well I’ll be funny and take you by the hand, and then I’ll take you on to follow my Twitter feed where I’ll retweet what people are doing at the moment. And why this is important and how it’s affecting people in different parts of the world, and in our own country! You know? Like…Sooo, and that’s sort of what my job is…pass them on to the professionals! [Laughs] The experts!
Sofie: Sooo, Can you laugh?
Sofie: What’s your….not the weirdest…not the best or the worst…just, what’s your favorite….story to tell, like your favorite experience of the….cause I’m….If I’m not interested in hearing, you know, all the…if it’s not about the dirt or the [gasp], the shock value…
Sofie: …or anything like that, but just like the….
Miranda: I think…
Sofie: Like…your favorite memory…your favorite thing…like your favorite story…the thing you love telling the most.
Miranda: It’s really easy, that one, because it’s….it’s sort of compomr….it sort brings in all my different, all my favorite parts. Cause it was at a party…so it was where me and a load of other girls who were sex workers, plus-size sex workers, we used to all work together sometimes…Errrr!!
Sofie: Uh oh!
Miranda: Err…err…you know.
Sofie: Uh…Well…Guys! I got her! I did it!
Sofie: You’re arrested.
Miranda: Yeah….sort of…breaking the law! Breaking the law! We organized parties, so we’d rent a flat out for a couple of days, and, we used to do these things called…right, I have to get this right. “M”….no….N…N-M-C-F….N-M-C-F. So it’s naked male, clothed female.
Miranda: Yeah! So there’s a fetish out there for men who, umm, don’t look like…who aren’t Chippendales, who aren’t strippers, you know. They don’t have the body for it, but what they do have is the fetish to act like dancers and strippers in front of a group of women, ummm, whether it’s a cuckolding thing, like whether they feel like submissive, and like, you know they need women to laugh at them and humiliate them and tell them to take their clothes off, or there is just something that genuinely turns them on to be, you know, cock of the walk and strutting their stuff. I don’t know, but it was a lot of fun to do! [Laughs] And we had this guy who would, he organize it, so he would pay for the room. He would get some champagne…and we’d all get paid as well, and he was, like, this older guy, so he was well into his sort of 60s, and he must have been a banker, cause he would always wear a very sharp suit…very sharp suit, and would always be at the entrance to say “Hello, ladies. Hello. How are you? Real lovely to see you again. Lovely. Are you enjoying the champagne? Let me pour…” “Thank you. Cheers.” And he’d want to strip, so we’d sort of start off like, like a hen party…the more raucous the better for him. So he’d be like, “Ehhh! Come on then! Let’s get your clothes off! Ehhh!” And we’re all…none of us are touching him. We’re all just sat down, sipping champagne, going “Waaay!’ Like….like a looney hen party. He’s stripping off, and you know, he’s all a bit saggy and a bit gray, and it’s fine. And then he gets down to the bottom, and he’s like “Ladies, I’ve been wearing this all day for you!” And he’s wearing…he takes off his trousers, and he’s wearing this crocodile Ann Summers thong...
Miranda: [laughs] You know the one, where it’s like, the little puppet ones, and you’re like, “Oh my God!” And we’re trying not to laugh, and we’re like “OH! Sexy!” Meantime, like throwing baby oil at him, like squirting it all over him. We had to put tarpaulin down. And he’d be like “ahhh!” And we’d be like “Take it off! Take it off! Take it off!” And then he’d sort of pull it off, and he’s…he’d have his penis….uhhh…and it would have, like, a sort of shoelace on it with a bell on the end, like a little ting-a-lingly bell. And his thing was that he’d like to sort of wave it up….like I’m sort of thrusting my crotch…and he’d like to sort of wave it around going “Ding-a-ling, ladies!” [Laughs] And he’d have…sort of pull the bell to make…pull the little shoelace to make the bell ding…and it was just like….one of those moments where I thought…got out of my body, and looked at myself, and I was like, “This is fucking brilliant! I’m getting paid to stay in a lu…luxury flat with Veuve Clicquot pouring in me. I’m with like five of my best mates, and we’re just watching this old guy have…have the time of his life.” He…you know. He gets to be center of attention, and we’re helping him out with that. And, you know, in the meantime…we’re getting…we’re just having a load of fun! Like…so yeah….that’s sort of one of my favorite stories, I think.
Sofie: That’s lovely!
Miranda: Yeah! I know. It’s very quaint. [Laughs]
Sofie: It’s lovely! I love that! I love that there’s no…That’s one of the things that I got from, like, working in that sex shop…there’s no weird…like, my boyfriend at the time was such a prude.
Sofie: He hated…he didn’t want to pick me up from the place. He would like park the car down the street.
Sofie: [laughs] Cause I would like, “Ooo! We got this new thing that I’m gonna bring home!” And he was like, “Oh…errr…No. I don’t”
Miranda: But didn’t you find that a good filter, like…if your boyfriend’s gonna be prudish about that, wouldn’t you just like, “Well, maybe you’re not…”
Sofie: Oh, yeah, but I was….16...like…
Miranda: Oh yeah!
Sofie: I had no idea who anyone was. What…yeah. I was just like, “Oo! A man who wants me!” Well, a boy… [Laughs]
Miranda: Yeah, but now it’s a good filter!
Sofie: So, now it’s really good to go….oh, no no no. That’s not…Like, you need to have some kind of openness…
Sofie: But sexually, I’ve just always been….I’ve started being this…I thought I was so kinky, and so into all of that stuff, and now I’m like, “Oh, you know what? Missionary. Lovely.”
Sofie: Mmm. Some cuddling. A little holding. Just hold me. No…we don’t even need to have sex. Just hold me a lot. That’s fine. Kissing. I like kissing. [Laughs]
Miranda: Just the same! And people are like, “So you must be into some pervy shit!” I’m like, “No. No.”
Sofie: I leave work at the job.
Miranda: Yeah! Yeah, I can write about it, cause it’s there, but outside of it, I’m just like, “Can we just go to the cinema and hold hands?”
Sofie: Ohhh! I love that. So…oh shit, I thought it said 2 hours…that is the weird…no. It hasn’t…uh…Last question. Uhhh…that I try to ask every single time. I’m not sure how much it’s working out.
Sofie: So, you have yourself as a baby. Not as in… you don’t give birth to yourself as baby, but you’re in the room…
Sofie: …and little Miranda comes out.
Sofie: And the baby’s very...it’s screaming and crying because there’s a lot of loud noises and a lot of light, and none of that was in the womb, and it’s all very terrifying. And it’s…it’s like babies must be so freaked out because it’s all so loud and awful. Umm, but you…and I think that’s my theory is that’s life. All of life. There will always be loud noises and a lot light that you’re not prepared for, and you don’t know how to deal with. But! You as the thirty-ffff…
Sofie: …five-year-old…I could have done that myself.
Sofie: …Uhh…You now know how the next 35 years of this baby’s life is gonna turn out.
Sofie: So you have the chance to tell this baby, you know, “Don’t worry. This will be fine.” Or…
Sofie: You can tell…whatever you would have wanted that baby to know.
Miranda: The first…Mate, the first 14 years are gonna be shit, but afterwards, you’re gonna be alright, like…[laughs] Just hold on. It’s gonna be…uhhh…yeah! It’s gonna get fine. It’s…you’re not gonna die before you’re 30. Like…at the moment I feel like I’m living in fucking Valhalla. I’m like… [Laughs] “Everyone told me I was gonna die! I’m not! I’m still alive! This is…this is weird!” But yeah! You’re not gonna die! Well, at some point you might, but…
Sofie: [Laughing] You’re not gonna die!
Miranda: Don’t worry about that! [Laughs] You might do!
Sofie: Sure! Lie to the baby! Lie to the baby!
Sofie: No matter what anyone tells you, you’ll never die!
Miranda: You’ll never die! Umm, yeah…can I just like, tell it, and that will be true? Well, no, that would be terrific. Ummm, so…just…just…keep going. Just hang in there. Everything is there for a reason. Everything is gonna happen…for a reason. Everything is character building. Everything is gonna be a story. Everything is gonna be a part in your life that will build you on, and…you’re gonna get…you’re gonna get what you want out of life. You may not think it’s what you want, but it’s….yeah, it’s what you need. So just…just fucking ignore them. Ignore everyone at primary school, especially Thomas Hold who’s gonna hit you in the head with a cricket bat, and no one’s gonna believe you. So, just get over that bit.
Miranda: The rest of it, fine.
Sofie: [Laughing] So, where can people find you, and uh.
Miranda: Uh, they can find me on Twitter. My Twitter handle is BBWMelody, which was the name that I used when I was, uhhh, when I was a sex worker. So people are always like, “What does that mean?” It’s like, “Big beautiful woman Melody!” Ummm, but I still use that account. I’ll probably close it sometime next year, because I want a new start, I think…
Miranda: Sooo, ummm. But you can…follow me on that, and that’s got loads of stuff on sex work decriminalization. Ummm, or if you google Miranda Kane, my webs….severely outdated website comes up. Orrrr, if you want to come to Club Indulge, we’ve got a big Halloween event on the 29th of October, and just google Club Indulge. Uhhh, and you can come to that, and I’ll give you…if you say you heard the podcast, I’ll give you a free entry!
Sofie: [sigh] Yaay!
Miranda: How bout that? Yaaay! Just give me an email? Ok?
Sofie: Thank you so much, Miranda!
Miranda: Welcome! No worries! Thank you!
Sofie: Hey, thanks for listening! Isn’t she great? She’s so great! I love her, love her, love her, love her! Uhhh….do you want to know who my…uhh favorite…uhh person is that I can’t wait to get on the podcast? It’s Alison Spittle. I love her so much, and I’m…she mentioned. She has a podcast called the “The Alison Spittle Show,” and I heard it on the train. And I heard an old old episode that I hadn’t heard in a while, and uhhh…in that…and then towards the end of her podcast she mentions me. And I always get a bit like, “Oh!” Whenever I’m mentioned in a podcast, which it’s not like it happens often. So I get really giddy. Then she said, [sighs] like the most wonderful thing, and she paid me such a big compliment, and I just burst out crying on this…train. And people were looking, and it was…awkward, and and, weird. And I don’t cry in public, or in….you know, in front of anyone. And then she was so lovely…and I can’t…wai…I’m so exci…I’m so excited about you…if you don’t know Alison Spittle yet…Oh my God! Your life is about to improve! Uh, find her on YouTube. Find her on Facebook. On Twitter. Everywhere! Cause she is fucking amazing! Uhhh…in terms of self-care, I just want to recommend something to you. It’s called “futureme.org”. O-R-G. Org. Ummm...and you can go and you can send emails to yourself in the future. Which is…I mean one of my favorite things to do, and I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned it before. I…what I do, is I go in, and I write “Hey me. Uhh...this is…these are the things that you’re currently thinking a lot about. These are the things you’re nervous about, and the things that you’re desperate to find out what happens. And umm, these are the things that you hope you will fix or do in the next 12 months, and I uhhh, and I, and I hope that we do them. And then I talk about the year before, and I say, “The last time I received one of these, you were talking a lot about this guy, or this problem. I hope that by the time you read this, everything will be cool.” Cause then you receive these emails like a year, or 2 years, or 3 years later saying, “Remember how obsessed you were about this one thing, and now you don’t even think about it. And it’s nice. I just received one today, and it was nice. It was just…It’s basically an email saying, remember a year ago you wanted to lose a lot of weight. Now you don’t give a shit, and you’re happy. Then I’m now reading it going, “Oh shit! Yeah, that was a thing that once happened, and now I’m happy. Huh!” That’s really nice! So, futureme.org. I can…I can recommend that. Umm…I really should be leaving you. Go to patreon.com/mohpod. M-O-H-P-O-D. Go to iTunes and give us a 5-star rating, please. Give ummm, you know…share it on Facebook and Twitter and all of that if you liked it, and uhhh, you know what? I will be back in a week’s time. So thank you so much for listening, and have a good day. Bye!